Monk 28th lvl perk

[RedGiant]

Many classes have been given the 28th lvl perk or some variant of end run perk for prestige classes. There are some notable exceptions to this. I'm not sure the reason for this, perhaps because, at least in the old economy, they were very good classes to begin with? Yet, I can't help but think some could use revisiting.

On the top of this list for me is Monk. Pure monks are not in a great place right now other than being meme-speedsters. My suggestion will probably sound radical, but, how about giving them Epic Dodge as their 28th lvl perk? Lets face it, this is what almost any competent end-run monk builds for, be it with 5 shadow dancer, 10 rogue, or some variant thereof. The shadow dancer get the ability to wink out at will, the rogue variant gets some nice sneak + the juicy UMD goodness, and both get the terminally useful uncanny dodge. These combinations would remain viable, since pure monk can neither wink out at will, nor pull off sneaky UMD goodness, nor even retain the dex bonus when flat-footed. Yet, this would certainly enhance some of their lost combat luster (EE induced and otherwise).

Pros? Cons?

[Astral]

Mechanically speaking, its not worth going pure monk even with that. Spell resistance is still bad in pvp even if you invest in epic spell resistance feat. You wont have uncanny dodge and your discipline is low even with max gear investment so you're prone to die when being KDed without having uncanny dodge. There's no apparent reason to take more than 20 monk lvls that I can think of and if I'd have to decide between going 20/10 or going pure monk with this epic dodge boon, I'd still go for 20/10 or 20/5/5 with hips.

Monk is a really problematic class with many abilities that are nearly useless (Wholeness of body comes to mind) but any nerf/buff can really drive this class off the rails entirely. Just leave them as they are. There's really no one thing you can give them at lvl 28 that would worth going pure except maybe a big spike in the damage department.

[RedGiant]

Hrm...reviewing the numbers and old posts...you may be right. I was just seeking to put pure monks on par with their better build variants. This perk would make them more tanky, not address any of their glaring damage/AB problems.

I did have half an idea of giving them the fighter bonuses for damage/AB only (and only with unarmed or monk weapons), but I'm not even sure +3/3 is enough.

[CosmicOrderV]

Once HAKs go live, i'm super duper hoping for some monk changes (or even paths!). It's a super fun character concept, but like Astral pointed out, is in such a precarious place mechanically speaking, that any changes at this time will do it no justice (being either ineffective or overpowered).

I'd personally be a fan of somehow buffing the Improved Ki Strike feats. For those unfamiliar, these are epic feats requiring at least 16 monk levels, and 22 base WIS, that count the monk's unarmed as +4 then +5 weapons for overcoming DR (two feats). That wisdom requirement is what really hurts. Maybe attaching bonus damage / AB to the feats, as well? Reward their ability to hone their body into a weapon, and having a high relevant ability score (sagely monks, high WIS). Being able to reward high WIS might also make a monk's Quivering Palm more appealing by consequence. Might be enough of a /punch/ that it's more worth it.

Then also give them Evasion at level 3, and epic dodge at level 28?

Then for some flavor, allow them to understand all spoken languages at level 15, as sign of their supernatural ability to empathetically read other people (high WIS, sagely archetype). Not to speak any additional languages, just understand every language they hear.

And then of course it probably goes without saying that Monk speed will eventually get nerfed. Maybe removed altogether! But it might be cool to see a temporary speed buff, perhaps when an ability is activated. Same way barbarians get that temporary move-speed during rage. Maybe monks lose base speed, but still get an ability to temporarily go fast, like after using Wholeness of Body. It would make that otherwise lackluster ability actually useful, and still lend monks some speed (could rename it something like, Introspective Focus).

[Astral]

Hrm...reviewing the numbers and old posts...you may be right. I was just seeking to put pure monks on par with their better build variants. This perk would make them more tanky, not address any of their glaring damage/AB problems.

I did have half an idea of giving them the fighter bonuses for damage/AB only (and only with unarmed or monk weapons), but I'm not even sure +3/3 is enough.

Honestly +3 ab is a lot. it would put them on the AB range of rogues and bards, which is a bit too high considering their apr and bab scaling down in 3s. their damage is much better than it was two years ago, before runes, adamantine knuckles, belt of the monk, etc. it feels alright now for pve. there are also shadow factors in pve (unreliably frequent occasions where you get your sneak bonus even when you -guard someone). In pvp you take way too long to deal meaningful damage to anyone, and they out-heal your dps with kits or heal potions quite effortlessly. So Gonnes are a thing. It's a meme.

[Luckshoe]

Something I feel like would be awesome for a "pure" monk would be a x3 multiplier towards unarmed strikes and increased multiplier range... there has never been a way to make an unarmed weapons master, and pure monk always kind of reminded me of something like that and it also goes along with their Ki energy

[MissEvelyn]

And then of course it probably goes without saying that Monk speed will eventually get nerfed. Maybe removed altogether! But it might be cool to see a temporary speed buff, perhaps when an ability is activated. Same way barbarians get that temporary move-speed during rage. Maybe monks lose base speed, but still get an ability to temporarily go fast, like after using Wholeness of Body. It would make that otherwise lackluster ability actually useful, and still lend monks some speed (could rename it something like, Introspective Focus).

I really hope not. Monk Speed is unique to a monk in D&D and Neverwinter Nights. It would take a way a main strength of the class if it was removed.

[Astral]

And then of course it probably goes without saying that Monk speed will eventually get nerfed. Maybe removed altogether! But it might be cool to see a temporary speed buff, perhaps when an ability is activated. Same way barbarians get that temporary move-speed during rage. Maybe monks lose base speed, but still get an ability to temporarily go fast, like after using Wholeness of Body. It would make that otherwise lackluster ability actually useful, and still lend monks some speed (could rename it something like, Introspective Focus).

I really hope not. Monk Speed is unique to a monk in D&D and Neverwinter Nights. It would take a way a main strength of the class if it was removed.

To be honest, as a monk player and speed addict, I have to admit the speed is too fast for the sake of giving the class any buffs. Could be nerfed from 1/3 lvls to 1/5 and open the class for buffs on other directions as a result but I'm scared to say anything about monk. I just hope they arent touched until there are haks who enable any changes in their hard coding and IF that happens, I'd ask the mechanical balance team to be VERY VERY snuggy-bear careful with any tweaks they go for because this class's balance is as fragile as a house of cards.

[CosmicOrderV]

Monk speed being it's main strength is both my point and the problem. No one is suggesting to just remove the speed and be done with it. It gets changed so other things can be added to make it a more well rounded class, like Astral just said. Until HAKs though, I imagine this among other mechanics wont be chamging anytime soon.

[RedGiant]

Do not hijack this thread with nerfs. I hate them. Taking away monk speed is a terrible idea.

This thread is about cookies!

What can we give end run monks to take them out of the trash barrel, specifically without giving or taking anything from the already potent monk combinations out there. This is how to maintain that delicate balance some of you reference.

I personally have seen several good ideas. I still like anyone of the following as a candidates for the 28th lvl perk or some combination thereof:
Epic-Dodge
Granting AB for Ki Strike progression
Increased Crit-Multiplier
Fighter-like Bonus to Unarmed Strike/Monk Weapons
Uncanny Dodge I

[Astral]

Do not hijack this thread with nerfs. I hate them. Taking away monk speed is a terrible idea.

This thread is about cookies!

What can we give end run monks to take them out of the trash barrel, specifically without giving or taking anything from the already potent monk combinations out there. This is how to maintain that delicate balance some of you reference.

I personally have seen several good ideas. I still like anyone of the following as a candidates for the 28th lvl perk or some combination thereof:
Epic-Dodge
Granting AB for Ki Strike progression
Increased Crit-Multiplier
Fighter-like Bonus to Unarmed Strike/Monk Weapons
Uncanny Dodge I

Lvling a monk to 28 without uncanny dodge is a nightmare. Their damage is just fine for pve as is and for pvp they would be just too strong if you give them stuff like Increased Crit Multiplier. Remember, untill speed is nerfed to some degree, monks CANNOT die unless its laggy. You need to be mindful of that when you ask for cookies.

[Beard Master Flex]

28th level monk somehow magically becomes full 25 BAB class complete with the 4 base attacks per round all Full BAB characters get, but only if they're unarmed. Maybe give them +4 or +5 fists if someone wiser then me can use maths to prove if that's OP or not.

Maybe cap the speed or make it mutually exclusive to speed - toggleable - on a cooldown so it cant be abused.

I would look at the revised Unchained Pathfinder Monk and ape those changes as much as one could for salvaging the class.

And Uncanny Dodge somewhere in their progression.

Having their abilities somehow be on a cooldown would be cool too.

I don't need the Pure Monk to be super awesome... just something with enough of an incentive where it doesn't feel bad against the canvas of what the other builds can do.

If speed is an issue I'd just cap it at the level 12 speed boost or something. Keep it, because its cool... but limit it so its fair.

As an aside I will go on record and say I will level a Full monk warts and all if the nerfed Kensai option still existed. 2 AC +1APR = No UMD.

[RedGiant]

Please stop with the nerf speed business. You are not unkillable. There are in game ways to reduce speed, some of them saveless. Most people don't bother because monks run away. This makes them not a threat...more a joke.

And now you understand why high-level Monk isn't that wonderful in any real offensive capability.

Well... Not going to argue with Jack about builds. But...
Playing a fist monk 20/5/5 as my current main and my damage is 1d20 + 3 str + 2 belt with weapon spec + 4 physical + 4 essence + 1d4 rune. Its MUCH better than it used to be a couple of years back and its not entirely terrible from my personal experience.

Edit: Stunning fist is shit.

You do 26 damage/hit across 7 APR, hasted with Flurry of Blows turned on, and your top AB is 38 with Flurry of Blows on. I've played several fist-based Monks of differing builds, I know the pain of those builds. I speak from personal experience when I say that they're severely lacking in the "Offensive Capability" department.

From you and Jack's previous thread, Astral, I'm slightly incredulous you think helping them out in the AB or damage department would make a pure monk OP. Jack is right here. The number of attacks and the AB progression seem impressive, but they really are only when combined with other martial classes. Thus, the entire point of this thread. By themselves, the top end of a fisted monk is really unimpressive. Lackluster even.

I think in the old days, builders looked at a 1d20/2d6 base damage + the number of attacks + reduced AB drops, and thought, "Wow, this is OP!" This is probably why it took literally 10 years to get half-way decent monk gloves that STILL are not even on par with any other masterly damask weapon. With all the weapon updates, the staff has rather sneakily balanced weapons somewhat by making truly superb versions of crappy weapons. Witness the Svirfneblin Rune Hammer or the Spider Queen's Wrath. So, while we are talking about a 1d20/2d6 base weapon, it only has a x2 crit multiplier...with...as Jack points out...an AB in the upper 30s. This just cannot compete in today's Arelith economy.

[RedGiant]

Having their abilities somehow be on a cooldown would be cool too.

This is a great idea. I can't believe this hasn't happened actually for things like quivering palm and wholeness of body. I would leave stunning fists off the cooldown list, however.

As an aside I will go on record and say I will level a Full monk warts and all if the nerfed Kensai option still existed. 2 AC +1APR = No UMD.

You and me both! Bring back Kensai...bad as it was! Sadly, I just rolled mine...

[Astral]

Alright. First of all I dont want to see monk's speed nerfed UNLESS haks are a thing, and I dont like haks but if haks are a thing and the movement speed can be toned down just slightly from 1/3 lvls to 1/4 or 1/5 it would be alright. I play a monk and I think they are too fast. I use -naturalwalk a lot for that reason cause my speed interrupts my RP. Again, I dont want to see it nerfed to anything lower than 1/5 lvls and it would have to come in a trade off for substantial buffs to some of their unused abilities (Empty body, Wholeness of body, Improved ki and improved stunning fist needing too much wis, and stunning fist in EE being really bad) and their damage output.

Second of all, in this thread and in the previous thread I think I made my opinion very clear that I think their damage output in pve is generally fine at lvl 30 dungeons. This is because I actually play in those dungeons every day and I do just fine because mobs dont have a lot of AC. (EDIT:) You dont need buffs to increase damage, you can just raise the damage on their gloves a bit, something that doesnt need haks or changes to their hard code. I think their damage reflects what they should have in current Arelith dungeon design.

Third, I also made it clear here and in the previous thread that I think their ab and damage output in pvp are VERY bad to a point where I always just default to a Gonne and I said that monks can just run away from any bad encounter that is not in their favour making them able to nit-pick the encounters that are more favourable to them (targets with low ac, mages etc) easily. For that reason buffing them in their current state without any nerfs to their speed is a bad idea in my opinion but I never said their damage is anywhere near good in terms of pvp. It's really bad. Adding Crit multiplier to pure monks as they are now would mean they can crit 100+ with 6 apr. It would mean they STILL nit-pick their fights easily and run away from disadvantageous fights while being even more of a melee-machinegun in pve. That's why I'm against it. Mostly because I'm scared of the nerfs in other departments which would follow such a huge buff.

Also, as a monk player, I laugh at those no-save movement speed reduction spells same way I laugh at being heavily encumbered. I still move around the same speed as a normal hasted person when slowed (when I'm using blinding speed) making me able to leave the aoe of the slow very quickly and peace out of the fight or run around the aoe in a friction of a second.

TL;DR
I'm not against monk buffs, I just think a class with that much survival abilites doesnt deserve to also be powerful in pvp DPSing. I would in general, at some point, like to see DPS added in a trade for some of that survival abilities and I would like to see the useless abilities being changed. Currently the most versatile monk build I can think of is 21 ranger 6 monk 3 bard with quarterstaff. It has the speed, it has cookies, it has more ab, the DPS you want so bad against favoured/studided which is all PC races really and their summons, evasion, uncanny dodge, okayish saves and it has more ac than a normal monk due to ranger getting bonus of +3 ac for using quarterstaff. Leave monks alone until haks.

[Iceborn]

I feel that monks are one of the oldest, tragically untouched classes, and they are not particularly fun to play right now, entirely mechanically speaking, that is. There's a stiffness in their kit and a few glaring problems that emerge, as their weird place in PvP as the only class that can Sonic away, their multiattack potential, or the Monk AC that synergizes so well with *certain* classes and builds with little restriction.

All in all, I'd love to see a large overhaul of this class.

[Astral]

I'm having a lot of fun and a lot of monk related RP. Also I might be a biased speed addict but I also have fun on the mechanical aspect of the class (but its not a pure monk, hell no) and I find it quite versatile and I get along with it's uselessness in pvp.

[RedGiant]

You cheeky developers.

Oh, alright...let's go with your plan! I'm in!