Arelith

Its no secret that sorcerers are completely overshadowed by wizards as far as class is considered far more useful than sorcs, (trueflame can be considered the exception)


So if you had the ability to, what would you do to increase the sorcs to be atleast balanced with the wizard?

Ive thought about it a lot and cannot really come up with a good solution to bring them up to par

Could give them either more feats, or somewhat steal from the wild mage and give them a lesser or equal spell refresh chance. Though this would just result in pseudo-weavemaster2.0

Sorcerers are flat out stronger than wizards in combat scenarios already, they get enough spell selection to always be relevant both in PvP and PvE as well as a lot more spells per day than a wizard does. What wizards get is more RP cookies in spell focuses, and more out of combat utility as they can swap their spellbook around.

Wizards get the bonus feats every 5 levels. I think that sorcerers could benefit from something like that. Or if you want to push them towards being more combat oriented wizards, you could give them still spell for free and an armor feat. This was mentioned before for true flame.

I think they feel less powerful because PVE is so static-- once a wizard knows the combo of spells to beat a dungeon they can do it over and over and over. Being able to cast spontaneously isn't valued much when you know exactly what to expect when you go out. A properly played sorcerer should excel in a surprise PVP encounter, I think, but those are usually rare.

Just for enjoyment sake what if sorcerers could cast any cantrip they know infinitely at level 1, 1st level spell at 15, 2nd level at 27?

The Pathfinder Method: A few selections of bloodlines, each with a few bonus spells known, a passive bonus or two, and a cool active ability maybe.

Giving them a dip that allows them to use charisma for saves / AC . . . Oh wait.

Cerk Evermoore wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:16 pm Giving them a dip that allows them to use charisma for saves / AC . . . Oh wait.

I think the question is for people who don't want to be LG or evil.

Zed wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:03 pm Its no secret that sorcerers are completely overshadowed by wizards as far as class is considered far more useful than sorcs, (trueflame can be considered the exception)

??? what???

Yes it is a secret, because that's literally not true at all

Sorcerers are better mechanically than wizards.

Please lock.

I'm very confused. Wizards are preferable to sorcerers? Since when? The vast majority of arcane spells aren't used, and if you're only using a handful of the same spells, every time - you'd take sorcerer over wizard, every time.

Are people pretending that certain classes are bad to buff them even further?

Most powerful build in the game in pvp BY FAR, when in the hands of a skilled player is 30 sorc.

Is this a mistimed April Fool's joke?

It's a little hard to tell if several people here are just trolling, or are blatantly misinformed.

Wizards are better and there's really no getting around it. You can't counter having more feats.

That said, I would personally hesitate to see much done to either wizards or sorcerers, beyond removing Wild Mage as an option from Wizards, and letting only Sorc's have access to it.

The reason being that once we have HAK's in, I expect the number of spell tweaks, and brand new spells, to start increasing. It's going to be really hard to balance new spells against paths like Wild Mage, and True Flame, such that we should really get rid of both. In this way as well, we can see unique access to spells. Sorcerers could, for example, get spells that wizards do not.

The people here are serious. They are not blatantly misinformed.

The sorcerer spell selection, while limited, allows for 90% of the spells you want and can cast them more times a day. Yes, you can beat more feats but a sorcerer can get a higher AC and saves to go along with those extra castings. It's quite a bit more powerful if you know what you're doing.

I wonder why we don't see more sorcerers than wizards, then.

Cerk Evermoore wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:16 pm Giving them a dip that allows them to use charisma for saves / AC . . . Oh wait.

It'd be nice to actually remove this from BG/Pally so that the class can be balanced without the exceedingly powerful spike of taking or not taking levels in either class.

CosmicOrderV wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:40 pm I wonder why we don't see more sorcerers than wizards, then.

Probably for the same reason you didnt see more vanila sorcs in the time of weave masters. People go for what is comfortable for them and offers them the concept they are after. This doesnt mean any mechanical changes to sorcerers are required and there ARE sorcerers around and not a few of them.

Wizards get more magical mcguffins in the form of more feats used for focuses. While sorcerer is stronger than wizard, wizard can be a diviner or take other such focuses, without harming its build.

I see both sides to this:

On one hand:
Sorcerers get a few extra casts per day over wizards, and if player knows what they're doing when choosing a sorcerer's spells and feats, they have the potential to be far superior due to spontaneous casting. It gives them an especially huge advantage in PvP.
However, they can only learn 3 spells of the 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th levels. This is especially bad on 6th and 9th where there's several good spells to choose from.
On top of that, they have less feats meaning they're not going to be proficient at as many schools as wizards, and despite already being feat starved they don't get max teir dweomercraft without spending another feat.

On the other hand:
Wizards get 4 more feats than sorcerers and can learn every spell, opening a lot more options on what they can actually do.
This lets them adapt to different dungeons better than sorcerers, assuming the player knows what to expect from the dungeon.
That on top of the fact they have two paths available that don't drastically inhibit what the player can do with the class; they have a lot more versatility then sorcerers have.
They also get the highest teir of dweomercraft for free.

They are still worse in most PvP cases, since PvP removes many spells from whats considered useful and relies on having the right counter to each situation.


What do I think should be done:
Not much.
I think they're in a fairly balanced spot as is, Wizard is often the better choice if you want your character to have more avenues to pursue, and sorcerer is often the better choice for raw power and PvP.

Something such as bloodlines that can add a few cookies and minor changes to the playstyle without being a direct 'buff' would be nice though. Sort of like how WildMage and Spellsword are for wizards, they open new ways to play the class.



Lets try to keep things civil, though.

I don't think they need a buff, but I'd love to see some cookies/features that accentuate their direct connection to the weave.

CosmicOrderV wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:40 pm I wonder why we don't see more sorcerers than wizards, then.

Mechanically stronger doesn't always equal more fun to play. Take druids as an example. Right now they're extremely strong but there's not that many druids compared to other more popular classes. Or as an even more direct example, the mass of people who made gen1 Kensai despite it being a direct downgrade in every aspect.

I can see why Wizards are more enjoyable for a lot of people. More feats mean more opportunities to grab Arelith unique caster cookies, easier access to enchanting and more skill points to play around with skills outside of the crucial ones.

None of that changes that getting more spellls per day and very potent multiclass options for godlike saving throws makes sorcerers the stronger combat alternative. If we were to change Sorcerers in any way I'd think it'd be neat to use HAK's (When they come) to give more metamagic options for spell flavor.

Nitro wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:06 am

CosmicOrderV wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:40 pm I wonder why we don't see more sorcerers than wizards, then.

Take druids as an example. Right now they're extremely strong but there's not that many druids compared to other more popular classes.

Compared to the more popular classes? I've met more druids then I have clerics to be honest. I think this is one of those issues of location location location. But I don't know what is defined as the more popular classes. We talking the fifty million ranger monk rogues or something else?

Honestly, dip classes make me sad.

I'm not sure how having more spells equates to PvP power. How many fights have ya'll been in that take longer than thirty seconds? Even a minute? I'm not trying to say that sorcerers aren't easier to play, but every fight I've been in, one casts about 10 spells. If it takes more than that, chances are it's not in your favor, and so you g-sanc before running. The extra feats wizards have allow them more versatility in this regard, because you can be great at dispelling [Abj], blocking all teleportation [Abj], have strong summons [Conj], AND have a a spell school dedicated to instantly turning the tide [Pretty much anything else].

More spell-slots just means you can grind for longer before you have to rest.

I can understand the concern of potentially buffing a BG/Pally dip, but I don't feel like that's an issue with sorcerer, so much as it's an issue with those two classes (Blackguard and Paladin, respectively).

Why do these discussions always get weighted more by PvP than by PvE?

Sorcerer and Wizard both suffer from similar problems in PvE compared to other caster types. Since they lack fallback options once the magic runs out, and running out of magic is easy, especially at epic, you find yourself playing a super conservative spellcaster that has to have every spell do it's job or else. That makes many of the fun spells less interesting and it's what makes things like Warlock more appealing.

I wish there was some design change that could occur. At the moment they can do better than they ever could since summons are now really good to have out, but then it turns into summons being the main power of the class and the other options just being secondary. I could see Sorcerer using some cookies to boost it's PvE capabilities, maybe some spell refresh system out of combat. I dunno.