Arelith

While I like the idea and concept behind this, I have some very major concerns.

We're in a time where people PvPing left and right in poor taste is too common, a quick glance at all the reminders, warnings and DM shouts that have occurred in game shows this.

I feel like these courier quests will encourage it.


It definitely opens the potential for players to have some genuine and high quality banditry roleplay, which is a good thing.

That said, players can't be trusted to always take a two-sided approach, and with the current state of PvP on the server it seems like a very poor time to attempt this sort of feature.
On top of that, it's been shown in the past that this community is too large and varied for mechanics like this to not be abused; the no RP before PvP state assassins used to be in comes to mind as one example.

I would be willing to bet a large amount on that the majority of people who get confronted mid courier quest will be treated with very one sided 'do what we say or we kill you' roleplay; especially since it's clearly stated players mid courier quest have no means of fleeing.

The fact players drop extra gold when killed mid courier quest will only further encourage these sorts of interactions; it's a perfect gold mine for the players that enjoy bossing around and PvPing others.


TL;DR

Irongron wrote:While carrying a warded package, the character's mobility is inhibited.
If a player-character dies while carrying a warded package, their corpse will spawn with extra gold.
As an aside, courier quests are a test bed for mechanics that direct player-characters to move bulky resources from point A to point B, allowing for interception and interference by other player-characters.

Do we really want to be encouraging PvP right now?

I see the courier writs as a "Accept if you're fine with PvP" sort of thing. Either your PC is fairly badass/stealthy, or you have friends that are fairly badass. Can even set traps for would be bandits by having one person visible and unwarded carrying a package and their defenders stealthed and fully warded nearby ready to attack and kill the bandits.

If you don't want extra risk of PvP, then don't take those courier writs and take the non-courier ones. If you're accepting a writ that paints a giant target symbol on your PC's head you shouldn't be surprised that people take some shots at you.

I had this same concern when I saw the update.

Why are we showing this information on examine? Why would anyone pick a Courier quest if it can fail and as far as I see, offers rewards of the same level as any other writ. I understand the concept, I think it could be a cool concept, moving resources about for Cities and all that. But not in the Writs system, people are going to get hurt and angry really fast.

The next step would be to show how much each PC is carrying in terms of gold, so I know just who to push my bandit RP to.

If you're worried about getting robbed on a courier quest, that should be reflected in how you act when you accept it. Bring friends, hire guards, try hidden paths and stay off the well-travelled roads. Nothing needs to be changed here except the idea that just because you accept the quest, you should get a free and uninterrupted ride to the finish.

I think this is going to be a very exciting activity for people to participate in and while I haven't seen it in action and in the world yet, I can't wait to see what happens with it.

(Anyone remember ArcheAge? Oh yes, I'm very hype.)

PvP is roleplay. PvP is not a bad thing. It's all in how you use it. Honestly, I see PvP more when the aggressor is met with a kind of stand-offish and aloof nature. You have a highwayman holding a knife to your throat, act like it and typically those encounters go great even if your character dies.

Twily wrote: Sat May 11, 2019 6:08 pmplayers can't be trusted to always take a two-sided approach

Do we really want to be encouraging PvP right now?

This also bugs the hell out of me. Try changing your perspective and trust that other players could make this fun. If they don't? It's your responsibility to make it fun! If not for them, at least for yourself.

The quests own, and the world needs more organic representation of logistics, military movements, and things occuring between settleements. I'm hugely excited to see where the changes go, because these things allow the creation of narratives that can spur on conflict with meaning, rather than conflict for conflict's sake.

I like the idea of people forming groups of guarded couriers, or people keeping the roads clear of bandits.

Can we also get resource caravans or payrolls moving between settlements? That'd be dope to guard & attack.

I like the idea but I do fear this is going to push the server from rp to more of pvp server. With some looking to simply hang out and seeking out package carriers so they have an easy excuse to pvp.

Eyeroll now. PvP is RP and an excuse to PvP is an excuse to roleplay. Geez guys, it's almost like you want a social server with party PvP settings.

My main concern with this is that, so far as I can tell from the announcement, a would-be bandit is rewarded ONLY if they kill the courier. There doesn't appear to be any indication that intimidating the courier into handing over the package gives any reward, so there's no "I surrender please don't murder my face" option for the courier because the extra gold on their corpse is the only reward.

I could imagine something like this:

If robbed, a courier can hand the package over to their robber. Maybe the robber has to have to have pirate tats.
The robber then is weighted down themselves and can get a reward for turning in the stolen goods in Sencliff or to a smuggler NPC.
So the person robbed could try to get a posse and track them down.
Most importantly, killing someone ends the chain and nobody gets a reward. Encourage people to transfer the package instead.

Yeah there's a lot of holes in this idea but something like it could lead to fun back and forth RP, as well as hiring pirates to ambush enemies without killing them.

Baron Saturday wrote: Sun May 12, 2019 1:33 am My main concern with this is that, so far as I can tell from the announcement, a would-be bandit is rewarded ONLY if they kill the courier. There doesn't appear to be any indication that intimidating the courier into handing over the package gives any reward, so there's no "I surrender please don't murder my face" option for the courier because the extra gold on their corpse is the only reward.

This is a large part of why my concerns voiced in the OP came about. From what I've seen, the design is based around and encourages PvP/killing, over any sort of story driven or two way roleplay occurring.

Overall I do like the idea to the update, but I feel it needs some redesigning to put the emphasis on interactive roleplay instead of being rewarded for ambushing and slaughter people who can't run away with minimal interaction.

Ork wrote: Sat May 11, 2019 9:45 pm Can we also get resource caravans or payrolls moving between settlements? That'd be dope to guard & attack.

If robbed, a courier can hand the package over to their robber. Maybe the robber has to have to have pirate tats.
The robber then is weighted down themselves and can get a reward for turning in the stolen goods in Sencliff or to a smuggler NPC.
So the person robbed could try to get a posse and track them down.
Most importantly, killing someone ends the chain and nobody gets a reward. Encourage people to transfer the package instead.

Stuff like this is what I imagine the system could be expanded into. For some packages, maybe killing the PC would make them drop the package, making handing it over to survive still appealing. More organic creation of narrative conflict, that gives reasons to the conflict, reasons to do things, be places - and more interestingly, has, with carrot anf not stick, motivated people to avoid using fast travel and constant lenses, rather than nerfing the item itself.

IT's been stated that this is phase 1, experimental, so we should focus on feedback that will help the system improve. Is there the possibility it increases fights and PVP? Yes. I consider this a good thing, as with the expanded system, these fights will be occuring for specific reasons, centered around settlements and their RP, and being performed by groups against groups with goals and objectives, instead of "today we hijacked the penny rose", or so on, so forth. It gives players more tools to creeate narratives and create "rulesets" for victory and loss in conflicts. It allows situations to progress rather than stalemate, which is important for the conflict itself and the ongoing narrative.

Baron Saturday wrote: Sun May 12, 2019 1:33 am My main concern with this is that, so far as I can tell from the announcement, a would-be bandit is rewarded ONLY if they kill the courier. There doesn't appear to be any indication that intimidating the courier into handing over the package gives any reward, so there's no "I surrender please don't murder my face" option for the courier because the extra gold on their corpse is the only reward.

The courier can always carry gold on them to pay off any would-be robbers. Or roleplay out the encounter and promise some non-gold based incentive to not be murdered or robbed. Just because the package itself can't be handed over, that doesn't mean there aren't ways to play out a peaceful resolution.

I like it in that it creates an incentive for the defender to fear actual loss. Currently in a tense RP situation, if I as a player give a "meh" to the "loss" of death and respawn, the other player doesn't have anything over me and I can say "Sir Timothy would never back down!"

With a courier setup there is a sense of loss but it is an opt-in condition (you chose to take the courier writ instead of another). I'm a bit more motivated to consider things past player pride. Maybe Sir Timothy wouldn't back down in that situation, but will deal with some consequences beyond the revolving door of death. Maybe Sir Timothy instead values completing his task more than his pride/ideals and makes a concession.

You can say all you want about how people should RP death etc, but I've played on RP servers where you drop your gear upon death and the people unwilling to compromise at all were a rare sight. That's way too hardcore for here but the courier thing seems like a reasonable compromise.

Likewise the inability to lens means the aggressors have plenty of time to RP things out as opposed to hovering their finger over their attack button.

Finally it should hopefully move PvPs out of player hubs so only the involved parties are taking hits.

I doubt what is in place will be perfect and will probably take some iterations and time for the culture to shift a little but could be good in the end. My only thought on that front would be a way to sit the package down, whether that is to fight without being kited to death, give it to the bandits, etc. It would really only need to be unique to that quest. If the courier loses theirs and holds up another courier carrying medical supplies to the same location, the receivers are not going to care as long as they get the supplies.

Though a little off OP, but not off topic (which was broad), as a somewhat casual player, I thought the idea of courier quests was awesome, especially for non-violent types. The immediate problem with that is the point of the OP, but I have other concerns.

The main problem is, IMO,its too bloody slow. I have to log tonight before being able to inchworm my way across the server. I could literally clear three easy kill quests in the time it took me to drag brewing supplies to brog. I get making people use the roads and killing fast travel, but ugh, the distances are too far and the crawl too tedious. I would recommend making these more like some of the patrol quests, with multiple stops to complete along the way and easing up on the personal movement speed dampening.

A secondary problem is one package at a time. Assuming I had the three hours to inch-worm across the server, I took all Courier quests in Cordor. I have to go BACK to Cordor and inch-worm BACK to where I was before or just a little further. I intentionally took quests that were in a neat geographical line, but in retrospect, this was a terrible idea due to this rule.

I abandoned all courier quests for the night, because I ran out of time. As above, would be neat of these could be made to work for the casual player, because, in principle, I think these are a great idea.

I ran two courier quests today. Big kudos to whoever added these!

The good:
The quest is very easy for big rewards. Perfect for my RP-build group who can't reasonably handle the quests aimed at our level. Speaking of which, everybody says the game is too easy - try making a character that isn't "awesome". It's a whole different experience.

The bug:
There is an amusing bug I found. If you take more than one such quest, you can only pick up one package at a time (as intended) - but you can deliver it anywhere. I delivered the package to Cordor in Bendir and the package to Bendir in Cordor. You can't use it as an exploit, because when you deliver the first, both quests will be half-complete. But one quest is completed when you PICK UP the second package. Exploit? No. Funny. You bet! Can't wait for that peddler in Bendir to open the package, expecting a bunch of amber samples. "What is this? A fake house?" Great RP for my chaotic-troublemaker character.

The PVP concept:
As noted by others, the quests do encourage PVP. The first problem is that it only encourages killing the courier. There needs to be some way to pay off the bandits - like surrendering the package. Also, the title of the quests should maybe start with the word "PVP Courier Quest" - just to make it clear what you're signing up for.

The teamwork concept:
As a helpful level 30, there's often NO WAY to help the citizens of my town. A lot of times, there's not much excitement going on either. I would love to be invited along as a courier guard! I'm guessing other level 30s would too! It's a great time to meet and talk, because we'd all be moving at walking speed. My advice to people taking this quest: don't be afraid to find some help! The reward is more fun for everybody!

My main gripe with the Courier quests is that they don't reward XP to characters between levels 21-30. Only gold. I can get the same amount of gold or more by running dungeons with my buddies, while also getting a ton of XP, with less risk of PVP. So it doesn't look like my level 22 character has any incentive whatsoever to do Courier quests.

Another thing I gotta ask, is why are we putting low level characters into a PVP scenario where they will inevitably be ganked by fully warded level 30 kill squads? They really stand no chance once some level 30 rogue decides he wants to do "Bandit RP." Mid-epics might at least stand a chance against some level 30 bandits in a 1v1 scenario if they have decent builds and gear.

Also, lets be realistic, there's no real reward for a bunch of people to follow some lowbie around protecting them from bandits except the satisfaction of PVP itself. While there are certainly a few players like that, most would prefer to do dungeons or something so they can level up and get gold with less risk of dying. Unless the Courier earns enough gold to pay everyone for their spell components/scrolls/wands and then some, I don't see many Couriers having an elite team of body guards to protect them.

Basically, there's a lot of ways this could be improved upon, to be more inclusive to the high level characters that might actually stand a chance at defending themselves, to be more rewarding, more immersive, etc.

Twily wrote: Sat May 11, 2019 6:08 pm We're in a time where people PvPing left and right in poor taste is too common, a quick glance at all the reminders, warnings and DM shouts that have occurred in game shows this.

I want to question the root assumption in this thread, so I quoted it.

How many times have you been involved in pvp in the last month?

How many times have you worried about pvp/being "pvp'd", or complained about pvp in the last month?

Some brief thoughts from someone who Hasn't actually Tried The System Yet.

I think the concern about pvp is valid, but as yet is only a concern. Let's see how things pan out a bit first? Maybe it won't be as bad as you fear.

Part of the issue is how much gold is dropped on the body too. Like, if the quest offers 5000 gold reward, but the body only drops one tenth of that (500) then I can't really see huge gank squads forming if I'm honest. Certainly not of anyone high level.

And if we do get the nightmar scenario of terrible pvp over this, then it's like any other pvp. Report it to us, the DMs, and we'll deal with players who are using this system as an excuse for awful pvp.

I do agree that the idea of being able to surrender the package is good though, but it'd need to be given some more forthought for how such might be abused. For example, handing in a 'stolen' package should not grant any xp, only gold.

But this is very early days in the system, let's see how it works, get some bugs fixed, and then tweak it as needed.

Just thinking... ships... pirates... courier quests...

Settlement quests?

If the packages can be surrendered perhaps pirates could get Pirate Points (tm) for turning in surrendered wares.

Neat idea, but what's tome stop someone just asking their mates with none-pirate characters to pick up a few writs, and then hand over their packages ooc?

I will say I enjoy the flavour text for the courier quests, and picking up/delivering them texts is also great.