Arelith

This came up in a chat earlier today and I thought I would ask the community at large what they thought about the various visual effects that many of the 'buffing' or 'warding' spells apply to character models. Mostly I am referring to the ones that seem to have no real reason or explanation for being there.

For example I would point out the spell Freedom of Movement. According to the NWN Wiki the spell description in game for this spell is as follows: The target creature becomes immune to paralysis, slow, and entanglement spells and effects.

According to d20 SRD the spell Freedom of movement has the following description: This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt, as well as on grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.The spell also allows the subject to move and attack normally while underwater, even with slashing weapons such as axes and swords or with bludgeoning weapons such as flails, hammers, and maces, provided that the weapon is wielded in the hand rather than hurled. The freedom of movement spell does not, however, allow water breathing.

No where in either of those does this hint that a green, pulsing, glowing circle of light should shine under the target's feet.

Another point I would bring up to this is the following. Arelith has taken the steps to obfuscate the character description box to make sure that you cannot see a list of applied effects to that character by using examine. This means that if I were to examine a creature (PC / NPC / Monster) I would have no way of knowing that the target was under effects like any animal buff, or haste, or even mage armor... but I can tell that they have Freedom of Movement, Premonition (which has the description that the caster is able to see into the future and avoid damage), Protection from Spells, or Spell Resistance (the spell), and even Protection from Elements (or any of those other elemental protections spells), simply because of persistent visual effects.

If left up to me I would suggest that many of those immersion breaking spell effects that have no valid reason for being there be removed. This would, for me, improve immersion as well as help with GPU and Frame Rate performance (especially in larger events), as well as leave a bit of doubt and mystery when confronting another player or NPC - having some question or doubt as to what buffs (if any) they might have on them. All of these are, I think, good arguments for removing these visual effects. I can't really think of a good reason for keeping them except for the more obvious spells that should have them like perhaps Barkskin which does not explicitly say that it makes you look like a piece of wood, but does say that it toughens your skin.

If I knew how to remove effects client-side for me then I would because I cannot stand walking into an area with a fully warded group, especially that SR spell from how it lags my game.

i wish barkpoopskin would be banished forever

I have a particular dislike of bark and stoneskin. I spend a lot of time making my character's armor look good, and it's hidden behind ugly bark and stone all the time.

Imagine how much more ready to rumble you could be in towns that hate you if the guards didn't know what buffs you had up!

Would be cool to tie the visual effects to a feat. Subtle spell doesn't exist in nwn, but silent could be a replacement, or a new feat with haks.

I agree that a lot of the visuals should either be toned down or removed entirely, if not for immersion's sake then at least performance.

Subutai wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:42 pm I have a particular dislike of bark and stoneskin. I spend a lot of time making my character's armor look good, and it's hidden behind ugly bark and stone all the time.

Those are the big ones for me. I want people to see the outfits I've worked so hard on, but Barkskin is kind of a requirement for leaving your house.

Aside from that, I don't like seeing visuals for stuff like See Invisibility, Ultravision, Clarity/Mind Blank, or anything that wouldn't normally be outwardly apparent. I do, however, think that protection magic of certain types and power levels should be visible, like Shield, Spell Resistance, Protection from Elements, etc...

I'm cool with the visuals because it's important to know which buffs someone has and whatnot, but I'd sell my soul for a +4 ac amulet just to get rid of the barskin forever.

Definitely feel like a lot of the visuals should be toned down. For barkskin i wonder too, is it possible to have the spell change the texture of skin only? As per the description. It doesnt bark your clothes. Barkskin.


Thought more on it: remove most if not all animations. Preserve some animations in the form of new spells. Like prestigitation placing sparkles instead of elemental warding spells. Then make it such that when you have Identify or Legend Lore active, you see active buffs when examing descriptions. Then as a counter throw in Nystul's Magic Aura as a new spell that obfuscates attempts to read buffs, alignment, and divination aura. While we're at it, segregate blocking scry from imp-invis and make non-detection a spell too!

Tarkus the dog wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:29 am I'm cool with the visuals because it's important to know which buffs someone has and whatnot, but I'd sell my soul for a +4 ac amulet just to get rid of the barskin forever.

Less laggy effect would be cool, and bark/stoneskin changed, but really you need to know which buffs are up. Otherwise people will just start assuming everybody have FoM and such up and outright remove half the spells from their spellbooks.

I would love for visuals to be removed, because they can be metagamed, and look obnoxious, and instead replaced by a system where on examining a pc you can see what buffs they have cast if they have high enough spell craft. Maybe a tiered system.

could be something for the divination feats

Gobbo Champion Inc wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:41 am I would love for visuals to be removed, because they can be metagamed

I'm sorry. No. Looking at someone to see what buffs they have applied by looking at the visual changes to the model, is not metagaming any more than a character knowing a goblin is a goblin by knowing what a goblin looks like.

Using the game's visuals to determine facts about the current situation is the precise opposite of metagaming. Metagaming is using knowledge and information your character does not have access to, in order to guide in character action.

In the case of looking at what wards people have, that is information your character has access too.

Don't call things metagaming when they are not metagaming

Wysiwyg, for right now, yeah. Maybe stoneskin could be replaced with the floaty rock one summons get somehow?

The Greater Good wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:28 am Wysiwyg, for right now, yeah. Maybe stoneskin could be replaced with the floaty rock one summons get somehow?

That's about model size.

Large models (giants, for example) get the floaty rock.



Just to note. I agree with that the visual effects for many wards are hideous. However, I think it would be best to retexture and redesign with more subtle appearance, rather than remove. As being able to see what wards someone has, is very much part of the pvp game, and should remain so.

While I can agree that it is technically not meta gaming to use the visuals to know what buffs a person may or may not have up I think it is entirely console gamey and not role play. How does the ability to sec moments into the future equate to I have a sphere of white whispy things floating around me, or web spells wont restrict me because I have a glowing green circle under my feet.

Using spell visuals to gauge PvP is just as cheap as using the challenging rating that was obfuscated from the examine window.

I do like the idea of a detect magic like spell/ability that would reveal information like what schools and strength of magic someone has though.

If someone has premonition up then the detector might get feedback saying that the individual has strong divination magic on them.

I very much agree with Aodh. It’s an essential part of magic on nwn. The sphere of misty white represents whatever more subtle visual would actually be there if nwn were capable of it, like all nwn systems.

Aodh Lazuli wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:24 am
I'm sorry. No. Looking at someone to see what buffs they have applied by looking at the visual changes to the model, is not metagaming any more than a character knowing a goblin is a goblin by knowing what a goblin looks like.

Using the game's visuals to determine facts about the current situation is the precise opposite of metagaming. Metagaming is using knowledge and information your character does not have access to, in order to guide in character action.

In the case of looking at what wards people have, that is information your character has access too.

Don't call things metagaming when they are not metagaming

The visuals ruin immersion. My greatest hatred is for the "floating eyes" of see-invisible and ... ultravision?

NWN has a "super high magic" and "over the top" feel for how they implemented spell visuals. I'd much rather have nothing.

Someone suggested it should be determined by inspection only. Perhaps a spellcraft or divination perk?

I'd vote to get rid of the visuals as well. Never cared for them, so long as the little icons stay there at the top of the screen, which bug out half the time anyways.

The only visual I've ever thought I would not mind is the ion stones but wish it was actually a single small stone floating around the head area in proper color form.

Oh and don't change the visual effects for invisibility.

Aodh Lazuli wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:24 am

Gobbo Champion Inc wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:41 am I would love for visuals to be removed, because they can be metagamed

I'm sorry. No. Looking at someone to see what buffs they have applied by looking at the visual changes to the model, is not metagaming any more than a character knowing a goblin is a goblin by knowing what a goblin looks like.

Using the game's visuals to determine facts about the current situation is the precise opposite of metagaming. Metagaming is using knowledge and information your character does not have access to, in order to guide in character action.

In the case of looking at what wards people have, that is information your character has access too.

Don't call things metagaming when they are not metagaming

Isn't it though? Why would a level 30 pure Barbarian with 0 spellcraft (I know they don't actually exist) know all of this? When the player is putting their knowledge into the character who shouldn't have that knowledge based upon their stats/skills, isn't that a form of metagaming?

That aside, I don't know how I feel about the idea. I too detest bark and stoneskin, but I think there is a very important bit of RP that is gained from being able to see all the spell effects.

It is very different when Stabby McWander walks through your towns gate and he is glowing like a Christmas tree and if he isn't. It guides the RP to be more instantly tense, than just a "Oh, there's Stabby again." For Guard PC's, this helps dictate how they react to Stabby as well. I'm not sure how I feel about removing it either partially or completely.

theCountofMonteCristo wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:17 pm (I know they don't actually exist)

:cjthink:

That seems to me like the end of the discussion, truth be told.

In addition, by the time a character reaches level 30, we can assume they have first hand experience of these "glowy whatsitmcjiggers" and knows "the rocky one makes it so I can't hurt him so much", even if they don't know the ins and outs of the spell itself.

Lets call it practical and experienced knowhow, over theoretical learning. You don't know the name or how it is made, but from personal experience, you know it's harder to put holes in rock than it is in flesh.
There would have to be some major mental backflips happening to somehow not recognise simple patterns.

I actually like the visuals for wards, but some could afford to be hidden for performance.

Prot from Evil/good needs to stay, it has use in RP beyond its mechanical properties.
The damage shields need to stay for obvious reasons. They're temporary and wear off quickly.
stoneskin should stay, because its basically armor that you chip off of someone
Protection from elements type spells should stay, I think. It also has use in RP beyond mechanical properties.
Clarity is temporary, and should stay.
The visage spells should stay.

Barskskin should become invisible.
The eyeballs for ultravision and see invis I think could be removed. True seeing should keep them.
Freedom could probably afford to be made invisible.

I'm biased, because I don't generally lag like the rest of you when faced by dozens of PCs with full wards.
The fugue's mists on the other hand, is a different story.

There was an override that removed those vfxs but for the life of me I can't find it again. As an override it only affected your client, but it was nice none the less.

Played a server once where TS, UV and see invis all did different colors of the rye glow vfx. That'd be cool here, and help with monk/warlock ambiguity, which would be nice.