Arelith

The surprise 'you can't function on the surface and to trade out you have 10 lives' thing seems a bit harsh. Maybe a one week amnesty to let people drop outcast status without being perma'd in a couple of weeks?

Also, does this apply to all underdark races? It wouldn't make sense if, for instance, a drow could use a PC shop on the surface, as hyperbolic as the example might be, but a human couldn't, no matter how rough and tumble they are. What about pirates?

Outcast Amnesty would only be applicable for humans and half-orc and any other normal surface races.

Kobolds, gnolls, trogs, ogres, drow, derro, orogs need not apply as their status is monstrous races.

Pirates and monster races will not be affected by the pariah system, as it is currently listed.
EDIT: Monsters will be affected, pirates will not be.

I think they mean that a drow can walk into a city and buy from a player shop currently. Now, with outcasts not being allowed, it's a bit odd that drow can still do this while a human, evil as it may be, cannot.

Outcasts had it pretty clear what they were getting on character creation, just because they weren't forced to observe the conditions of "Shunned in most civilized places" until now shouldn't mean that they get a free shot to back out of the consequences of their choices.

Xerah wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:25 pm I think they mean that a drow can walk into a city and buy from a player shop currently. Now, with outcasts not being allowed, it's a bit odd that drow can still do this while a human, evil as it may be, cannot.

This.
And by Amnesty, I mean: Can we get a week for people to drop outcast status WITHOUT an MoD?

Last question: Can surfacers still go the UD (danger notwithstanding, considering its dangerous for UDers on the surface as well) and use their shops? If Outcasts and normal humans are, apparently, distinguishable at a glance, this would make sense.

The Greater Good wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:31 pm

Xerah wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:25 pm I think they mean that a drow can walk into a city and buy from a player shop currently. Now, with outcasts not being allowed, it's a bit odd that drow can still do this while a human, evil as it may be, cannot.

This.
And by Amnesty, I mean: Can we get a week for people to drop outcast status WITHOUT an MoD?

Last question: Can surfacers still go the UD (danger notwithstanding, considering its dangerous for UDers on the surface as well) and use their shops? If Outcasts and normal humans are, apparently, distinguishable at a glance, this would make sense.

Why were they an Outcast in the first place, then? What's the excuse IC?

"We feel bad for you and nobody is really sure how you became an Outcast in the first place, here, you're welcome back among us"?

Xerah wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:25 pm I think they mean that a drow can walk into a city and buy from a player shop currently. Now, with outcasts not being allowed, it's a bit odd that drow can still do this while a human, evil as it may be, cannot.

I would love to see a racial toggle. Let the Thane of Brogendenstein toggle all half orcs as Pariahs. Let Guldorand say they hate Sun Elves and toggle them. Or Bendir become super xenophobic and toggle all non-Hin.

And by Amnesty, I mean: Can we get a week for people to drop outcast status WITHOUT an MoD?

Short simple answer: No.

If this were a matter of reworking mechanics in a way that would affects builds, as opposed to social interactions and NPC convenience and access the Team would typically allow for a grace period to assist with rebuilds and similar adjustments for major changes.

This reinforces what it's actually like to be an Outcast - IE serial killer, extreme liability, or just hated for some reason enough so that the common man does not want you in their midst. And monsters.

I do like the idea of all UDers suffering the effects of this change when attempting to do business in surface cities, however rare that is.
In the same breath i'd very much be in favor of surfacers suffering the same effect in the UD.

I know that Andunor is meant to be "open" to pretty much everyone, but I think it makes perfect sense that an Andunorian trader would spit at the thought of serving a random surfacer that just happened upon their stall, unless they pass the bluff check of course.

Drow and monsters probably shouldn't be able to buy from shops inside settlements either? That would give extra value to having shops in out of the way places.

Y'know, I was going to post that I don't think it's fair to limit PC shop sales and punish the shop owner with a smaller customer base. But then it dawned on me, this is great for encouraging under-the-table black market type RP. If a pariah sees something they want they have to contact the shop owner and if willing, MAYBE the shop owner will arrange a sale in person or by proxy at inflated prices and risk to their reputation. Sounds like great RP material to me.

a surface tradesman having scruples makes a lot more sense to me than an andunorian one. an andunorian just wants your dang money

Orian_666 wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:11 pm I know that Andunor is meant to be "open" to pretty much everyone, but I think it makes perfect sense that an Andunorian trader would spit at the thought of serving a random surfacer that just happened upon their stall, unless they pass the bluff check of course.

"What, you haven't committed some atrocity on the surface? Go away and come back when you have, I'll only take the coin of scoundrels even though I'm a ruthless capitalist"

This system would be very out of place in a lawless metropolitan trade city like Andunor. Why would anyone down there care where the coins come from as long as they keep flowing?

Zavandar wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:13 pm a surface tradesman having scruples makes a lot more sense to me than an andunorian one. an andunorian just wants your dang money

Shouldn't that be up to the individual character? Merchants on the surface should be able to be just as unscrupulous as they want. It really comes down to what the character would do and what mercantile laws the settlement has in place-- which is where limitations should come in whether mechanical or handed down IG.

If this concept is expanded maybe "sell to anyone" could be an option a shop could toggle and this would be known by the settlement government. If someone wants to be open about selling to pariahs and outcasts they can be and probably face IG consequences.

Because of all the monsters that would call them traitors and murder them for serving surfacers

As mad as drow get about Outcasts already, it's a wonder they wouldn't full scale revolt if normal surfacers were buying stuff in Andunor.

Nitro wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:14 pm

Orian_666 wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:11 pm I know that Andunor is meant to be "open" to pretty much everyone, but I think it makes perfect sense that an Andunorian trader would spit at the thought of serving a random surfacer that just happened upon their stall, unless they pass the bluff check of course.

"What, you haven't committed some atrocity on the surface? Go away and come back when you have, I'll only take the coin of scoundrels even though I'm a ruthless capitalist"

This system would be very out of place in a lawless metropolitan trade city like Andunor. Why would anyone down there care where the coins come from as long as they keep flowing?

Yea even as I was typing it I wasn't completely certain about it myself.

Still though, I think making it a little tougher for surfacers to do business in the UD would be a bit more realistic. At the very least making it difficult for people that absolutely shouldn't be trading with underdarkers at all!! Like Paladins to begin with. Or followers of certain gods that should be strongly against doing business with monsters.

It would take some time and a fair amount of effort to hash out all the specifics but if it's so unrealistic for an Orog to simply slap on a helmet and full clothing to cover their appearance (easily passes as a half orc IG) and walk into Cordor for a cup of tea that they'd be blocked by this system if they don't have the appropriate skill then at the same time it should be just as unrealistic that a shining beacon of light that slays monsters (just like the vendors down there) for breakfast could walk into Andunor and do the same thing. Just as much sense as adding monster races to the list of those unable to access shops and stuff (pending their bluff ability)

This isn't some sort of "Well if it affects one side it should affect the other!!" thing, I play surfacers myself, I just think that for certain people doing business in Andunor, or at the very least having the option to, doesn't make sense thematically. And with this new system in place making it a bit harder for them to do so simply makes sense to me.

a lot of the surfacer hate is a standard held by SOME andunorian PLAYERS that do not speak for the entire city or its npc vendors.

you don't need an outcast tag to be a bad person. there are plenty of characters that would fit right in with andunor that don't have the tag. looking at someone and saying "you didn't commit mass murder, so you shouldn't be here" makes a lot less sense than "you committed mass murder, you shouldn't be here".

there are npc shops that spit on surfacers and wont sell to them already

Ebonstar wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:45 pm there are npc shops that spit on surfacers and wont sell to them already

Oh I wasn't aware of that, that's a good thing then. Thanks for letting me know

Small update on top of the update:

Monsters will also be automatic pariahs as well. Pirates however will not be affected.

So I'm not sure if my post was deleted or if I never posted it in the first place, but this being a third topic... I think I'm not in the wrong to ask again... :

What is the reasoning behind the recent changes?

Also, on top of that, I have to say I'm not happy with how Outcasts are being treated as of late. It seems like a very anti-fun thing that's been going on for them.

Tarkus the dog wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:03 am So I'm not sure if my post was deleted or if I never posted it in the first place, but this being a third topic... I think I'm not in the wrong to ask again... :

What is the reasoning behind the recent changes?

Also, on top of that, I have to say I'm not happy with how Outcasts are being treated as of late. It seems like a very anti-fun thing that's been going on for them.

my thinking is just abuse of the system and now the penalties are being enforced through mechanics

Ebonstar wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:08 am

Tarkus the dog wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:03 am So I'm not sure if my post was deleted or if I never posted it in the first place, but this being a third topic... I think I'm not in the wrong to ask again... :

What is the reasoning behind the recent changes?

Also, on top of that, I have to say I'm not happy with how Outcasts are being treated as of late. It seems like a very anti-fun thing that's been going on for them.

my thinking is just abuse of the system and now the penalties are being enforced through mechanics

My thoughts exactly.
It was being overly used as a means to be able to "freely" travel both the surface and the underdark. Now the realistic effects of being an outcast are being enforced mechanically as a result of that, frankly i'm okay with this outcome, as much as I like giving freedom to players to decide how things are I firmly believe certain things do need to be mechanically enforced. After all we, and the DMs, can't be online 24/7 to enforce things ourselves and NPC presence should have an impact on the living world.

i also think this change was more of a corrective thing than anything else

Good change. I think it makes a lot of sense thematically.