Are we ready to talk about Dragon Wing Spam?

[Eters]

Challenge is fun, challenge is nice, but what is challenge?

It's when a player is placed in a difficult situation, where he can use a multitude of tools to try to accomplish the goal at the end. This often means that the player needs to be given the "possibility" to use such tools. Such gives the game a "Play/Counter-play" feel and the player is engaged, because the challenge is there, and he has tools against it, it allows him to use his mind and expertise to solve the situation, when he fails, he can think of new ways, and when he succeeds, it's rewarding.

Now with the recent dragon change, dragons became a danger, and that is a beautiful thing, dragons are dangerous ! But danger born from a real difficulty, there to offer you a challenge, and danger born from cheese is different things. Right now the dragons seem to have a decent AB/AC/Saves and abilities, one of those abilities is the ability to fly. When a dragon flies, upon landing, it sends a shock wave that makes the players roll a fortitude vs knockdown, failing it causes them to fall (for quite a while). That bit is fine because when a dragon flies, an attentive player can more or less counter that by moving away from the place where the dragon may land, the powerful weapon is there, but the counter-play also exists, it makes it challenging, and us as players remain focused on where the dragon may land.


But the wing attack, which rolls that same save vs knockdown, happens without a warning, happens at melee range and happens instantly. It happens frequently and there is no way to predict it, the dragon WILL knock you down with it's wings by basically brute forcing your saves until you roll a 1.

From my experience, upon fighting a dragon, on a character with 45 fortitude (the DC for knockdown is 41 I believe) , I was knocked down 5 times, how? The dragon spammed the attack, jumping up and down as if dancing to "Ravers in the UK" until a 1 was rolled, simply.

As a player, you're given no tools to counter that other than "well you need fortitude, also a lot of luck." and it feels punitive rather than challenging.

The question open, are you as a player alright with the way the current wing attack spam works? Or is there any Feedback one can gives about how to make it a more fun mechanic?

Personally I would propose a cooldown to it, along with a roar or an emote *The dragon's wings open wide.* Before it does the wing attack.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Nerf wing buff,

Buff dragon breathe.

Iconically, dragon breathe is supposed to be something that one fears for their life. Be you a bunch of low levels characters in danger of being instantly wiped out or a powerful fighter with subpar reflex thst could go toe to toe with a dragon except that its breathe might wipe half your health.

I feel breathes should be feared much more than some wing attack.

[Zavandar]

are we ready to take a talk about starting threads with "are we ready to talk about"?

Edit:
Also, I think it's fine. They're dragons. They should be a challenge, and the odds of success shouldn't always be assured. Sure it can be annoying, but then don't fight a dragon

[MissEvelyn]

I, too, think that that the breath of a dragon should be the most dangerous aspect of the dragon.

[Hazard]

Yep, totally should nerf wing spam and instead buff their breath weapons. That would be awesome.

I'm fine with them being hard as heck, but I'd much rather be burnt to a crisp than just ... lay on my butt while it pecks me to death. One scenario is awesome while the other is just silly and annoying.

[Subutai]

Honestly, I feel like the wing buffet isn't only annoying and cheap, but also immersion-breaking. Dragons are not small little birds than can beat their wings and take off in a second. They're giant beasts that, even allowing for the obvious magic that lets them fly, would require quite a bit of time and energy to get their wings beating hard enough to knock someone over, let alone to go flying around. Honestly, they'd probably even need to get a running start, or fall off a cliff, or something, rather than just hopping up and taking off.

My point is, the fact that dragons spend entire fights hopping off the ground, knocking everyone over, and landing somewhere else is, at least to me, quite beyond my suspension of disbelief. They fly around more like little sparrows than like giant dragons. I'd really, really like to see them rely on their wings less in combat, or at least be restricted to a somewhat lengthy cooldown.

[The Rambling Midget]

I think it'd be fine as is if you immediately got up after being KD'd, losing maybe a half round or full round. I don't get why someone would just take an 18 second nap on the ground when there's a dragon there. It's not standing on you, so there should be nothing to stop a living creature with functional appendages from standing up again.

[Ork]

I think it'd be fine as is if you immediately got up after being KD'd, losing maybe a half round or full round. I don't get why someone would just take an 18 second nap on the ground when there's a dragon there. It's not standing on you, so there should be nothing to stop a living creature with functional appendages from standing up again.

Agreed. 100%

[NauVaseline]

I think it'd be fine as is if you immediately got up after being KD'd, losing maybe a half round or full round. I don't get why someone would just take an 18 second nap on the ground when there's a dragon there. It's not standing on you, so there should be nothing to stop a living creature with functional appendages from standing up again.

Preach Rambler!

[Ebonstar]

i think it should be per situation and area.

if you fight a dragon outside, sure it can fly up and wing buffet when it lands.

However, when you are in a cave, or in a structure that has a roof, How is the dragon flying or doing more then hopping. That is with its legs not its wings, wings would be for balance if anything. Legs do the hopping.

Now unless of course we are supposed to believe, that the ceiling is a few hundred feet high to allow baby jumps into the air, which is still hard to fathom when a dragon is one hundred feet tall.

And why isnt wing buffet against discipline instead of fortitude. it is KD afterall.

[NauVaseline]

And why isnt wing buffet against discipline instead of fortitude. it is KD afterall.

This is because everyone has Fort and not everyone has Discipline.

[Subutai]

And why isnt wing buffet against discipline instead of fortitude. it is KD afterall.

This is because everyone has Fort and not everyone has Discipline.

No one has Fort that high. You have to spec for it specifically, which is pretty crazy honestly.

[Mr_Rieper]

And why isnt wing buffet against discipline instead of fortitude. it is KD afterall.

It's a common misconception. What the dragon is actually doing is kicking up a cloud of dust, which your character has to make a save or it triggers a coughing fit. The coughing is so bad that they have to lay down for a moment. It's especially bad for asthmatic wizards, but the chad ranger and barbarian just give a firm cough and shake it off.

What we really should be adding is the ability to pat each other on the backs firmly. It'll have some use against dragons when trying to help somebody clear their throat, but also other utilities in RP.

[LichBait]

Wingbuffet is awful. It's why I never go to dungeons with a dragon in it. Even with a PC with hefty fort. The little jerks will just spam it repeatedly until you fail. If they would do it like.. once or twice a fight maximum, that would be cool. But they'll just spam spam spam until you're down, rinse and repeat. It's just not worth the fight in my opinion, especially when the save is like DC 40 with no chance of spellcraft bonus.

[ActionReplay]

I nerfed this like a few months ago they should only be able to use the wing spam once every 30s, as in before they could use it all the time.

[Royal Blood]

Regarding challenge

The Baphomet beast boss is really neat. He has a diverse set of abilities that don't just 'crush' you and can be avoided thus require 'tactics'. Then his acid shield pulses so you have to attack when it's down etc. It's a hard fight without giving the boss an unavoidable soul crushing ability.

That being said! The wing spam has been reduced so it's not as bad as it was. I don't find it to be as annoying as it was before. The annoying part about wing buffet is it just happened. You either succeeded in the roll or you didn't and you couldn't really avoid it.

[WJLIII3]

Honestly, I feel like the wing buffet isn't only annoying and cheap, but also immersion-breaking. Dragons are not small little birds than can beat their wings and take off in a second. They're giant beasts that, even allowing for the obvious magic that lets them fly, would require quite a bit of time and energy to get their wings beating hard enough to knock someone over, let alone to go flying around. Honestly, they'd probably even need to get a running start, or fall off a cliff, or something, rather than just hopping up and taking off.

My point is, the fact that dragons spend entire fights hopping off the ground, knocking everyone over, and landing somewhere else is, at least to me, quite beyond my suspension of disbelief. They fly around more like little sparrows than like giant dragons. I'd really, really like to see them rely on their wings less in combat, or at least be restricted to a somewhat lengthy cooldown.

It's not just about woulds and probablys, in fact. Any dragon who's size is Large or larger has a PnP fly speed of 200 ft(clumsy). Clumsy is the maneuverability tag, a special trait of PnP fly speeds, and it means they can only turn 45 degrees across one full move, and must move at least 10 feet to do so. Any round they attempt to fly in which they do not move at least half their move (100 feet), they fall 150 feet that round. They can't move backwards, they can't hover in place, they can't change altitude without first flying at least 20 feet, and they can only climb or decline at a 45 degree angle.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm# ... Dimensions

[NauVaseline]

No one has Fort that high. You have to spec for it specifically, which is pretty crazy honestly.

Right, but wing buffet is also used by Wyverns who are also similarly reviled.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

No one has Fort that high. You have to spec for it specifically, which is pretty crazy honestly.

Right, but wing buffet is also used by Wyverns who are also similarly reviled.

Yeah my goblin can take on 10 ogirllions at once with no effort where they give the same exp if not more than the wyvern. Yet wyverns veing worth very little exp still solo me and make me run for my life when i see them lol

[Might-N-Magic]

It's alwaaaays Fort. Everything dangerous is Fort. Nothing is ever Reflex. Dodging a wing? Noooope. Wouldn't want Ref to be useful... Good thing I only ever have to worry about ONE save...

[The Rambling Midget]

Wouldn't want Ref to be useful... Good thing I only ever have to worry about ONE save...

Until you hit that 35DC Tangle Trap while FoM is off and you're trying to maneuver. Or, y'know... want to completely evade the 200dmg fire breath from that dragon.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

It's alwaaaays Fort. Everything dangerous is Fort. Nothing is ever Reflex. Dodging a wing? Noooope. Wouldn't want Ref to be useful... Good thing I only ever have to worry about ONE save...

The Wing Gust simulates the gust of wind spell, which is a fort-save vs. a 3 round knockdown effect. Whether or not this feature would be more tolerable as an attack roll vs discipline I'm unsure, but if you were looking for a reason as to why the mechanic is executed that way, there it is.

[Tarkus the dog]

I nerfed this like a few months ago they should only be able to use the wing spam once every 30s, as in before they could use it all the time.

Nah doesn't work like that, they still spam it.

[Reallylongunneededplayername]

I actually have a suggestion:

Remove it.

Instead add wirlwind attack.

"But Reallylongunneededplayername, Why Wirlwindattack?"

Please, Call me Markus.

But, Yeah, Wirlwind attack, Imagion the dragon, Instead of flying up in a cave hitting his head doing a 1D12 dmg, Tail whipping his enemy. Maybe add it as flavor text everytime he does it? "The dragon roars and swings his tail at his foes".

Cool?

[Morgy]

I like the idea of these emote additions to special attacks. Feels more immersive and ‘epic’.

I do think breath and tail (whirlwind attacks) should be more influential to a fight than flappy wings.