Abjuration -Ward Change

[Sockss]

What was the reasoning behind this one?

The ward as it was, being a free action and not hostile, was already very, very strong.

Abjuration is also one of the best focuses for casters.

[Zavandar]

same

just because it's not seen often doesn't mean it isn't strong. an instant action stun to ward off melee pressure is crazy.

does it slow if it doesn't stun? if it does, then you need both freedom AND clarity/mind blank to be safe from this for a school that is already very strong.

[Orian_666]

It's actually not that strong at all. EDIT: Okay, saying it's "not that strong at all." is wrong of me, I think a better way to convey my feelings on it is that it's not strong enough considering the investment needed for it. It is strong, but it's not enough when you really think about it, or at least it wasn't (I still feel even with the slow it's not good enough, myself)

The DC is comparable to a level 9 spell, which for quite a few builds and even PvE enemies isn't actually all that threatening.
The stun only lasts 1 round, so 6 seconds, a fraction of the duration of other spammable CC options.
It has several hard counters (even certain class benefits that make them immune to it).
If the save is made you can stand in it without needing to re roll each round, you're safe within it.
Costs 3 feats (2 pre epic, 1 epic) to get and can only be used once per rest, sharing that use with -ward_teleport.

By comparison the rogues Paralytic Caltrops, something they get for free at rogue level 24;
has only slightly lower DC (most of the time, though can be the same depending on your build),
can be spammed to cover an entire area limited only by how many you have in your inventory,
paralyzes for the same duration but has always applied a slow,
will require multiple re rolls when standing in it,
bypasses some counters to paralysis (likely a bug but still worth noting),
granted anyone that failed the save are now immune to it again for 3 rounds but considering it has no cooldown to simply throw more down this isn't too much of a weakness,
and finally it doesn't cost 3 feats to achieve, you get it for free when building practically any viable rogue heavy build.

If paralytic caltrops were never added then I wouldn't consider -ward to be needing any sort of buff, but since they were added -ward is comparatively inferior to something that it shouldn't be.

I've had multiple epic casters and I can confidently confirm that the most use i've gotten out of -ward was for RP reasons, not for its intended use as CC, there are simply better options for this instead of wasting the much more useful -ward_teleport. Placing down a visible ward on the ground like that when roleplaying ritual and "fancy" magic.

[Orian_666]

same

just because it's not seen often doesn't mean it isn't strong. an instant action stun to ward off melee pressure is crazy.

does it slow if it doesn't stun? if it does, then you need both freedom AND clarity/mind blank to be safe from this for a school that is already very strong.

"after the stun effect ends"
Seems it'll only slow if they failed the save and got stunned. So mind protection should work against both technically.

[Zavandar]

you've glossed over it being an instant action. grenades are not.

it's also an apple to an orange. entirely different kits.

i'm not trying to be rude when i say that if you think it's weak, you're not using it to its potential.

[Orian_666]

It was already stated it was an instant action, didn't feel the need to repeat that.
I don't deny that it has it's strengths, and I have used it in fights plenty of times before, i'm just pointing out that a six second stun in an area, that can only be used once per rest (albeit as an instant action) isn't all that strong for a 3 feat investment.
As far as spells go there are vanilla spells (and Arelith altered spells) that are superior CC options, even with the cast time.
The instant cast thing is really its main strength, but you have to consider these things as a whole, and as a whole the return on the investment is just.. weak, overall, especially when you start comparing it to alternatives and other similar mechanics and options.

[Peppermint]

-ward is not a "three feat investment". Those three feats also net you +4 on your dispel checks and IGMS immunity via shield. Even were -ward not a thing, abjuration would be one of the strongest, if not the strongest focuses in the game.

[Orian_666]

But we're not discussing abjuration as a spell foci option, only -ward and in that regard to gain it and use it it is a 3 feat investment.
Sure you get plenty of other cookies with those 3 feats but again that's not the issue here.
-ward requires you to get ESF abjuration, that takes 3 feats, simple as that. Do you get other benefits from taking those? Sure. Are they relevant to the usefulness of -ward? Not at all.
-ward is a nice boon to have, i'm not denying that at all, even without a slow it's nice to have.
All i'm saying is that as far as ESF abilities go, and other similar abilities, it's not all that strong. The return from -ward for the investment is fairly low, all things considered.

[magistrasa]

Abj is already a must-have school for spellcasters because of all the benefits it comes with. -ward being made only more powerful, solidifies its position as a necessary feat investment. Even without the dispel buffs and the IGMS immunity granted, there are no ESF command abilities more potent, in roleplay or PvP alike, than -ward and -ward teleport.

Without knowing the motivation for its implementation, the buff seems unnecessary. Every caster class is already packing ESF:Abj into their build, and every abjurer is already using -ward. Sure, -ward has never been particularly considered strong - probably due to personal anecdotes of it failing the few times it's tried in the field, towards which I can similarly contribute my own failures - but I think that doesn't necessarily need to be corrected. Because, again, you get a lot for investing those three feats, and -ward's place in the meta has fallen into a useful and oft-employed piece of utility. It doesn't need PvP effectiveness on top of that, just like all the other ESF -commands don't need to come packaged with PvP effectiveness. Transmutation just makes it so you and your friends don't need to spend so much on portal lenses. Illusion gives you a free speedy and a clone of yourself that is pretty much useless except for some cool fun tricks. Divination lets you scry, but it's so glitchy and the duration is so short that it's really just a risk for the caster as you regularly get stuck in the scrying location, and a gold sink if you're using spell components to take that risk. Conjuration's is the only one that's tangentially related to PvP strength because everyone's been in a situation where they confront a small group and suddenly, minutes later, they've tripled in number. Necromancy, Evocation, and Enchantment don't even have their own -commands.

So when you compare them all together, it just seems like more and more of an odd change. They're all just meant to be cookies, aren't they?

[Orian_666]

I just remembered something about -ward, and I can't believe I forgot it!!
It may be FOIG stuff though so I won't state what it is here, but yea... -ward is fine where it is, with or without the slow.

[NauVaseline]

I haven't taken I agree that Abjuration is very, very useful for Sorc/Wizards, but on Clerics it's honestly pretty whack outside of niche situations. I have no idea what the Druid spell-list looks like so I won't speak about them. As someone else pointed out, it's still predicated on the original save failing, so I don't see this as very overpowering. And wouldn't Freedom block the slow effect?

Still, I lament this Epic spell update wasn't for the Enchantment focus.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

My problem with the addition is that just seems to pile on more stuff to classes that have a lot of stuff. It's not like Abjuration didn't do a lot already.

[Skarain]

I like the addition. New cookies, regardless to who they are, are always nice. A slow is a nice addition to a defensively intended epic magic spell and make using it more encouraged in actual situations. While i do no longer play my abjurer sorcerer, i imagine i would be trying to make more use of the spell now. t's not like it does not have counterplay with freedom of movement for those concerned with pvp balance. It just makes an epic spell feel more epic.

As for piling more stuff on already good classes, everyone will get their turn in time.

[Sockss]

-ward doesn't have counterplay when used correctly, it's an instant action.

Ward increases a mage nuke on a vulnerable target.

Ward is party friendly and allows your summons (edk) or party members to put out some serious damage and also doesn't tie you up.

Ward isn't a 3 feat investment, it's a huge bonus on top of one of the best focusses you can pick up. If no the best on a caster.

Ward has a use on any form of caster, even bclerics and druids.

And now it's been buffed.

Which has buffed abjuration, which didn't need it.

And -ward, which didn't need it.

Why? What problem did this fix? Was someone unaware of how strong it is, or do they disagree?

[Irongron]

I belive this was done in response to an approved suggestion, made last year.

If there are issues with it we'll look at it in due course.

[Sockss]

Was there any reasoning behind it?

[Shadowy Reality]

-ward was a stun.

Anyone mind immune, stun immune, under clarity or Mind Blank was entirely immune. That is it a free action is almost irrelevant.
If your target was warded, then -ward was useless.
If your target was not warded then almost any other spell would achieve the same result. Want to disable? Cast a disable. Want to flee? Use Gsanc, Invis, etc.

The reason you rarely saw -ward being used in PvP was because, as I have stated, was mostly useless, asides from very niche situations. It is fine now, and if it isn't it will be reverted as many other things. Instead of arguing that Abjuration is so much better than other schools (which it is), maybe you should be arguing for ways to make the other Schools as good.

[Artenides]

"after the stun effect ends"
Seems it'll only slow if they failed the save and got stunned. So mind protection should work against both technically.

The slow effect is only happening if the initial stun was successful.

[Peppermint]

Being a free action is huge! Not only does that mean you can cast the spell while disabled to wriggle yourself out of a nasty situation (yes, even while Timestopped), that's also one more action you can take when pressuring an opponent offensively. Hellball is very strong for much the same reason; it's not about damage dealt so much as it is time bought. PvP is a momentum game, and tacking on yet one more debuff is a huge swing in that momentum.

Though abjuration is usually taken primarily for the school's other perks, there are already builds that take epic abjuration specifically for -ward (e.g. the pure healer build.) The school definitely does not need buffs. Sure, I suppose one could argue that every school should just be buffed to abjuration's level, but that would represent a buff to every school in the game and a huge universal buff to casters. Do casters really need that kind of love? Is New!Monk the new normal?

[Sockss]

-ward was a stun.

Anyone mind immune, stun immune, under clarity or Mind Blank was entirely immune. That is it a free action is almost irrelevant.
If your target was warded, then -ward was useless.
If your target was not warded then almost any other spell would achieve the same result. Want to disable? Cast a disable. Want to flee? Use Gsanc, Invis, etc.

The reason you rarely saw -ward being used in PvP was because, as I have stated, was mostly useless, asides from very niche situations. It is fine now, and if it isn't it will be reverted as many other things. Instead of arguing that Abjuration is so much better than other schools (which it is), maybe you should be arguing for ways to make the other Schools as good.

I think the reason was people don't understand it's efficacy. Arelith doesn't set the highest bar for mechanical competence, which makes it even more important that you don't make very strong things stronger due to ignorance.

Let me try to explain step by step.

A free action is never irrelevant. Let's look at that in detail:

1. You can cast that at any time, even when disabled or shapechanged - you cannot do this with anything else.

2. You can cast this opportunistically. That is you can cast in any window when the opponent is vulnerable without impacting anything else you are doing.

You mentioned immunities:

1. Clarity, for anyone that can't self cast, is unreliable. It has a cooldown and a huge window of opportunity to exploit.

2. Lmb/MB are breachable and high in the breach list. These are not pvp viable methods of mind immunity. If you were to apply them after being breached you would be losing a half round of action, per round, behind an enemy mage and you will lose.

You mentioned any other disable would have the same effect.

1. Other disables take time to cast. So you have a huge advantage in action economy (half a round is huge)
2. Other disables will strip gsanc/invis. (So you can effectively pitch a stun out for your summons and party without becoming vulnerable yourself)
3. Other disables don't give a party friendly persistent aoe (allows your party and summons to attack while preventing rescue by others)

Ward is very strong.

Mages were in a good spot, making them better necessitates making everything else better. Why would you increase their power arbitrarily and create problems which need resolving?

[Shadowy Reality]

You are not wrong, it definitely is useful, and the buff makes it slightly moreso. But it continues to be a very niche thing. It is centered on the caster and it has the same area as Glyph of Warding, which is fairly small. The new effect does not change much the action economy, it removes exactly one action from the target (or half depending how the slow is removed), that is it.

All I see if people arguing that -ward is strong, not arguing how the added slow is going to break everything.

If the target is buffed you will probably have to breach twice to make use of the slow (you just lost the action you gained with the slow when it comes to tempo). If the target is not buffed you gain an action. And still, if the target is not buffed any long term disable you have is probably more effective than -ward, effectively ending the fight, making the situations where a long term disable will not work but -ward will a very small intersection in a nice Venn diagram.

[Sockss]

The added slow increases it's efficacy by half a round to a round, depending on the method used to remove the slow.

That is anyone surviving an abj ward to nuke must tie themselves up removing the slow.

That is, most commonly, a round period in which they are pushed further behind.

You can't fight while slowed.

For one -ward free action you achieve 1.5 to 2 rounds advantage which is very, very big.

So you have taken something that is already very strong and made it 50-100% stronger. Needlessly.

[Alantar]

Don't forget that the ward can be dispelled, even if the visual effect still remains.

Besides, I think -pray works against it.

In my opinion, it's a good spell, but not OP, even after the changes.

[Eters]

I think the change is strong, and not all that necessary, but the reaction to it is a little over the top, because despite the slow being added, the tools we have currently are not the same we had before. For instance freedom of movement potions, that's half a round to use, and you can give up on clarity entirely for the purpose of passing the ward, you will not be paralyzed. More so, even if you are, you can just drink the potion (if you have it) once the slow effect starts affecting you. Resulting in a net half a round waste only (and it's not really a waste because Freedom is important.)

Overall, this change will not affect how you deal with the -ward itself, because both mind wards and freedom still net you an immunity to the old and new effects. I would wait to see how terrible that is in actual practice but at first glance, It's not that bad, the ward is just slightly more punishing than before.

[Sockss]

Don't forget that the ward can be dispelled, even if the visual effect still remains.

Besides, I think -pray works against it.

In my opinion, it's a good spell, but not OP, even after the changes.

You can pop the ward on someone, resulting in 0 chance to dispel.

Forcing a pray is also very strong.

Eters, read the above on why immunities aren't viable vs a free action ability in pvp vs a competent opponent and note that the increase in down time and swing of action advantage includes fom pots.

"Slightly" more punishing is not true. It's 50-100% more punishing.

I disagree that the reaction is ott, needlessly buffing things that are already strong shouldn't happen. There doesn't appear to be any reasoning or thought behind it either which is worrying.