Arelith

After the last few updates, toning down and balancing the various classes, skills, and spells, I am left feeling that spellswords, blackguards and warlocks could also do with some examination. The former for retaining high ab/damage, along with a full suit of mage spells it can both case and use off a scroll, as well as the means to access word of faith scrolls, and the latter two for retaining a powerful, sr 32 summon when other similar summons are being toned down.

I am not sure if/how these classes should be balanced, but thought i'd offer my views on them, and maybe get discussion going. It is also very possible devs and Irongorn are looking at these classes already, and feedback here might help in balancing efforts.

To expand a bit:

Spellswords after the EMA buff, had one of the main disadvantages of the build removed, being able to get AB comparable to the lower end of WM builds, while retaining strong defense especially now in the era where dis-junction is gone, and you are not breaching deep enough to rid them of key magical, defenses with a single mord. They retain the ability to cast spells like timestop, dis-junction, and greater sanctuary, which recent nerfs dont hinder when related to the spellsword class at all, allowing it either to escape combat, buff up, or re position in safety. It can also cast timestop, and disjunction as scrolls, and is capable of making them with the scribe scroll spell, so supply is not an issue. Spellsword also has easier access to the lore 50 needed to access word of faith scrolls then other classes, because of higher int. Spellsword has risen in comparative power a great deal, having escaped unscathed from recent balancing updates, while main threats have been weakened.

Warlocks and blackguards retain a powerful summon, along with other abilities, such as eldritch blast for the warlock, and solid melee performance for the blackguard.

In the warlocks case, the summon can be brought back 42 seconds after the last one has been slain or killed, making it a threat that needs to be dealt with time and time again in an environment where dis-junction, and word of faith no longer exist. Banishment can prevent summoning it back, but all the warlock needs to do is transition to an another area, and summon it back there, and the banishment ward effect is bypassed.

For blackguards, and here particularly for the 4 rogue, 10 knight, 16 blackguard variant the summon can be guarded with heroic shield, making it very effective to use in high end dungeons to solo content with. It is very nearly a pocket WM summon, that the BG can guard to prevent dying, as well as buff in other ways for pvp, alongside an already very capable melee build with great saves, defense, and solid offence. Even without knight levels, the BG summon is very powerful in pvp, in right situations, even if it makes for a poor tank in higher end pvp content, as it can’t be guarded without knight levels.

Like I said above I dont know if, or how these should be balanced, but think that it is important to look at these classes and see if they need looking into in this new environment we are transitioning into.

Chosen Son wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:12 amIn the warlocks case, the summon can be brought back 42 seconds after the last one has been slain or killed, making it a threat that needs to be dealt with time and time again in an environment where dis-junction, and word of faith no longer exist. Banishment can prevent summoning it back, but all the warlock needs to do is transition to an another area, and summon it back there, and the banishment ward effect is bypassed.

In the case of PvP, the Warlock would be fleeing which is considered a loss and thus it would not be allowed as per the PvP rules to engage in PvP against the same player for another 24 hours.

MissEvelyn wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:47 pm

Chosen Son wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:12 amIn the warlocks case, the summon can be brought back 42 seconds after the last one has been slain or killed, making it a threat that needs to be dealt with time and time again in an environment where dis-junction, and word of faith no longer exist. Banishment can prevent summoning it back, but all the warlock needs to do is transition to an another area, and summon it back there, and the banishment ward effect is bypassed.

In the case of PvP, the Warlock would be fleeing which is considered a loss and thus it would not be allowed as per the PvP rules to engage in PvP against the same player for another 24 hours.

That's not the case at all. The 24 hour rules only apply when someone in either side of the conflict has died, and transitioning one area doesn't count as breaking away from combat, it needs to be sufficiently far away.

Indeed.

I would recommend that all players read the rules on Arelith's front page or the in game journal.

so much completely unnecessary work

This is what the rules say. I would not say anything else unless a DM states it otherwise.

Cortex wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:59 pm

This is what the rules say. I would not say anything else unless a DM states it otherwise.

My mistake. I was thinking of the thread that talked about partial loss with some of the party members fleeing when their friend died.

Blackguard Knight is very competent at PvE but no where near a caster from my current experience. Seems fine to me.

There should be ~some~ classes that are fun to play solo for folks with variable hours who can’t always find a group.

You can’t guard in PvP either.

That has merit. I've seen dms rule that the friends was involved in pvp thus had to leave if they conceded after the person died

kiljaedon wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:26 pm I've seen dms rule that the friends was involved in pvp thus had to leave if they conceded after the person died

I don't understand what you're saying
and unless you've a forum post or screenshot it's just an unverifiable anecdote

why isnt this thread talking about bclerics, too

Clerics absolutely have alot of the same advantages that make spellsword so problematic at the moment, and I should have included them into the post as well. I've just not had the same kind of direct exposure to the class in a while as i've had to the other three classes. Having solid saves, great ab/as buffed, and access to a range of powerful and useful spells. In many ways they are like spellswords with the additional perk of being able to summon. The GS and EDK nerf dont hurt bcleric at all, as they can just gs, buff up, and break gs by casting edk as a fire and forget missile. They also dont have the same kind of need for lore, and high level mage spells as other meele characters have. They lack the ability to directly cast disjunction like spellswords can, but a cl 27 bcleric will only fail to word of faith an enemy edk on a roll of 1-2 and a fiend on a 1-4 even without a breach of some kind.

Reduce SR of all summons by close to 10 or so perhaps?

You heard it here folks. If you can summon or self buff, prepare for a nerf!

MissEvelyn wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:48 pm

Cortex wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:59 pm

This is what the rules say. I would not say anything else unless a DM states it otherwise.

My mistake. I was thinking of the thread that talked about partial loss with some of the party members fleeing when their friend died.

You are actually right. Many times in a PvP setting, if you have run, and attempt to head back, DM's have sent messages saying that you left and can't come back or it would count as a seperate pvp encounter and thus be breaking the rules. (It may be a rule that hasn't been held consistent. I'm not a big pvp'er but i've personally had this happen to me 3 times and others have told me many more times that this has happened.)

a1b2 wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:32 pm

MissEvelyn wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:48 pm

Cortex wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:59 pm

This is what the rules say. I would not say anything else unless a DM states it otherwise.

My mistake. I was thinking of the thread that talked about partial loss with some of the party members fleeing when their friend died.

You are actually right. Many times in a PvP setting, if you have run, and attempt to head back, DM's have sent messages saying that you left and can't come back or it would count as a seperate pvp encounter and thus be breaking the rules. (It may be a rule that hasn't been held consistent. I'm not a big pvp'er but i've personally had this happen to me 3 times and others have told me many more times that this has happened.)

What constitutes “running?” Time out of combat, distance, leaving an area? What if I’m a SD and hide then run to corner to hide across a big map, heal rebuff then they find me 1 min later and we fight? Combat moves across areas all the tome. This seems really tricky to define let alone enforce. I’m very curious what the official stance is here.

a1b2 wrote: Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:32 pmYou are actually right. Many times in a PvP setting, if you have run, and attempt to head back, DM's have sent messages saying that you left and can't come back or it would count as a seperate pvp encounter and thus be breaking the rules. (It may be a rule that hasn't been held consistent. I'm not a big pvp'er but i've personally had this happen to me 3 times and others have told me many more times that this has happened.)

As far as I know, if you didn't die during the PvP encounter, just ran away, you are free to head back and re-engage your adversaries whenever you want. I assume, however, that if the 'scene' calmed down, you'd need to resume roleplay again before engaging.