Arelith

Hello,

I would like to propose that the subject of the spell uses the currently equipped weapon instead of the one provided by the spell.
Worth considering is extending the duration on ESF Transmutation.

For balance I would add considering switching off UBAB regardless of the weapon used and Monk Wisdom AC while transformed.


Thank you,

I can't easily answer this one, as this spell obviously has big PVP balance implications. Moving it to feedback for more player/staff input.

Feel free to resubmit once there's been more input, and link in the feedback thread for me to review.

Does it still transform the player into a weird model? If so, that should go

It's not really tensers transformation if you don't, uh 'Transform' is it?


Keeping the weapon makes sense, and I don't forsee huge PvP concequences here, either. It's still bugged when you transition too, right?

In its current state, if the transformation were removed I would imagine it would become a strict buff to Spellswords everywhere. Perhaps if the attack boost capped at a total ab of a Fighter of equivalent level, similar to divine power. I have played on other servers that modified this spell to act similarly.

https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Divine_power

https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Tenser%27s_transformation

This spell currently has a massive bug there if you transition when it is being used, it dumps the extra APR, and something else which I forgot.

Reported it months ago.

Yah or make it not available to SS. I agree w/ the AB boost comment to limit it stacking on builds that are already high AB through cross classing. It'd be nice to retain worn equipment too.

JustMonika wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:57 pm It's not really tensers transformation if you don't, uh 'Transform' is it?

Yet we call people putting on thirty pounds of muscle 'transformation'. They don't turn into a Snuggle a Bugbear monster

NauVaseline wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:23 am

JustMonika wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:57 pm It's not really tensers transformation if you don't, uh 'Transform' is it?

Yet we call people putting on thirty pounds of muscle 'transformation'. They don't turn into a Snuggle a Bugbear monster

My wife calls them battle toads.

Scylon wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:05 am My wife calls them battle toads.

What does she call the Rock?

This spell as whole should be more like combat ready from WM...or combination of divine power and aura of vitality...in short boost to STR, CON, DEX, and bonus to AB...model size bonus ...
That would be cool and more like what spell should do...you can add loss of concentration or less DC of spells, or ASF to balance it so not every caster is running around as buffed up giant...and it has low duration anyways...

My initial intent had been to keep it as transformation (with the penalty of not being able to cast spells)
But only to use the currently equipped weapon instead of the transformation weapon.

Amnesy wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:22 pm My initial intent had been to keep it as transformation (with the penalty of not being able to cast spells)
But only to use the currently equipped weapon instead of the transformation weapon.

Totaly cool by me...I am tenser lover..so any change is good change...

Let's bring 2 components of the initial discussion:
1) Spells works, as usual, the only change is the weapon in use will be taken from the currently equipped weapon at the time of casting (1h, 1h+shiled, 2WF, 2H).
What it does:
+You keep your feat investments if you have any.
+You keep your fancy weapon.
+You keep your imbues.

For safety element: Since Transformation gives AC, disable it stacking with Monk AC.

2) GSF Transmutation or ESF Transmutation could extend the duration of the spell (same as it does with Aura of Vitality)

And adding the possible relating bug: (by Scylon)
"This spell currently has a massive bug there if you transition when it is being used, it dumps the extra APR, and something else which I forgot."

Above had been written with current status in mind, which means that Spellswords:
Do not have access to ESF - like ESF Illusion clone (With the clone update approved for keeping buffs this will throw SS off balance).
Have a heavy strain on soft cap AB bonuses already.

Spellswords out there, could you see something else going overboard with this request?

Amnesy wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:47 pm Let's bring 2 components of the initial discussion:
1) Spells works, as usual, the only change is the weapon in use will be taken from the currently equipped weapon at the time of casting (1h, 1h+shiled, 2WF, 2H).
What it does:
+You keep your feat investments if you have any.
+You keep your fancy weapon.
+You keep your imbues.

For safety element: Since Transformation gives AC, disable it stacking with Monk AC.

2) GSF Transmutation or ESF Transmutation could extend the duration of the spell (same as it does with Aura of Vitality)

And adding the possible relating bug: (by Scylon)
"This spell currently has a massive bug there if you transition when it is being used, it dumps the extra APR, and something else which I forgot."

Above had been written with current status in mind, which means that Spellswords:
Do not have access to ESF - like ESF Illusion clone (With the clone update approved for keeping buffs this will throw SS off balance).
Have a heavy strain on soft cap AB bonuses already.

Spellswords out there, could you see something else going overboard with this request?

Regarding SS...nah...its fine...will it give them temporary buff? Yeah...but...and its big but..
What it actualy does for you? You probably lose sobe AB, HP, AC, damage thx to transformation...and you get some caped AB some AC..and 2 APR...Its dispelable....Its probaly not best...but could be actualy usable...but not broken at all

NauVaseline wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:44 am

Scylon wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:05 am My wife calls them battle toads.

What does she call the Rock?

Also a battle toad.

So more back on topic.


I don't think tensors transformation is the super buff some might fear it to be if it let you have whatever equipment even for spellswords.

While you are transformed you cant cast spells, im going to assume this includes scrolls and wands. Which means a dwarf wm with super lore can still take actions like debuffing you or a scroll of flameshield while you can't debuff/rebuff to counter them until you untransform.

This change, if implemented right, impacts pve more than top tier pvp. It will have a significant impact on everyday middle/low tier pvp though as it may cause spellswords to effortlessly walk over unprepared mundanes and make mundanes who didnt want to invest in lore feel extra useless because the spellsword only disadvantage with tenser transformation, if changed, would be lack of spell casting.

Truthfully, this spell's NWN implementation has always been a pain. It's probably better if it doesn't polymorph at all, since that's nowhere in the spell description and makes the spell work quite a bit differently. If it gives the buffs it's supposed to with 100% Arcane spell failure, it should be more properly balanced, I think.

Mind yes, it probably would be very OP with spellswords, so it might need a custom implementation for them or be disabled entirely.

If its implemented in a way that's op for spellswords it will be an op scroll too.

Is divine power scrollable?

Leave it the way it is, except restore cross-area functionality.

This topic has been brought up again and again over the years. Changing it will almost inevitably boost someone that doesn't need it, ruin its use for those that do, or hose the few that have built for it as is.

The +ab for spellsword to be 3/4 on their 1/2 wizard base is a soft bonus. This means whatever ab tenser's would normally give 27/3 spellsword (+1 per 2 caster levels=13) is actually limited to about a 5 bonus. This is depending on what enchant your weapon is, if you have aid, bard song, etc.

Their truestrike numbers work the same. You're usually only adding about 5 ab if you TS on a spellsword.

That being said, part of the power of SS TS is the imbue proc and apr. A tenser's-transformed SS isn't going to have that power, or be able to cast. I think it would be a good pve form for keeping up with the other melee. In pvp, even with tenser's-transformed ab a SS isn't going to out melee a f/wm/r. SS want to be casting nukes and landing procs in pvp, not just facerolling.

i like the spell tensers, even though its current form is buggy....

When i first read this thread, my first thoughts were it would be OP if you could use your existing weapon as a spellsword, as tensers essentially adds 2 attacks per round....

However, as mentioned above, the AB bonus on a SS its actually a limited bonus as it would contend with the soft bonus from SS 3/4, and given you can't cast in tensers, you're limited to the default 1 proc per flurry. so the DPS isn't going to go through the roof for spellswords here.

After applying some critical thought, i actually really like the suggestions of: GSF or ESF extending the duration of the spell.

And, as The1Kobra suggested, changing it to a non-'polymorph' but receiving the default buffs, however with 100% arcance spell failure would keep this in check/balanced, and prevent Truestrike proccing getting out of hand in terms of pvp balance on spellswords with regards to the extra 2 APR from tensers.

EDIT - And ensuring it doesn't work with UBAB for kama/qstaff because that would be flat out ridiculous, a hypothetical 12 APR would
be silly.

If we're discussing changing Tenser's, I'd like it to work like tabletop.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transformation.htm

Transformation
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 6
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level

You become a virtual fighting machine—stronger, tougher, faster, and more skilled in combat. Your mind-set changes so that you relish combat and you can’t cast spells, even from magic items.

You gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, a +4 natural armor bonus to AC, a +5 competence bonus on Fortitude saves, and proficiency with all simple and martial weapons. Your base attack bonus equals your character level (which may give you multiple attacks).

You lose your spellcasting ability, including your ability to use spell trigger or spell completion magic items, just as if the spells were no longer on your class list.
Material Component

A potion of bull’s strength, which you drink (and whose effects are subsumed by the spell effects).

It would be nice if it ceased to be a polymorph effect, as it's not the kind of transmutation that changes your shape in a way that merges your gear - it's meant to be a short burst of you becoming a competent martial damage dealer with the gear you have on hand, and this would be a much more valuable implementation.

I understand there are problems with modifying a creature's real base attack value, though, so my desires might be a little much.

If we are going to disable the polymorph effect and grant the caster 100% spell failure, there should most certainly be a way to cancel the effect when needed.
Perhaps a "-dispel tenser" command could be used for this.