Arelith

Posted: **Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:22 pm**

So I saw this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=27020

And wanted to talk about something related but did not want to hijack the thread. While the post called for efforts to balance spells away from the save free kind, adding in more perks if a save is made, I think it warrants a corresponding conversation about the role of saves on the server. The argument is that IGM's are the go to because saves are so high and there is no diversity of spells. But the question is why are saves so high.

While gearing certainly helps, I have often found it puzzling how important a 3-4 level BG/Paladin dip is on almost any character than can afford to pump points into charisma. The divine damage builds are typically considered top tier by the get gud crew and it is no wonder. Divine Might, Divine Shield, Smite, and wicked saves for a 4 level dip. Now I think we can talk about divine might and divine shield but those are less of an issue given they are a multi-feat investment that requires players to spread attributes points across a few areas (strength/charisma). However, the saves just automatically apply and scale up with charisma bonus. The only other thing that is similar to this is the automatic monk wisdom ac bonus and we have seen that nerfed on a few builds in the last few days.

So the question. Is there a problem with benefits from dips that do not scale with the investment in the class?

Posted: **Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:26 pm**

In my experience someone with 3 paladin levels and money is usually better than someone with 27 paladin levels

I'd like to see dip values reduced in this case, especially considering that we don't really enforce any particular paladin standards except in the most egregious of cases of doing outright evil things recklessly

Posted: **Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:57 pm**

Yeah, definitely not a fan of dips but they are so integrated in the server balance at this point that it seems like it would be hard to break that.

Posted: **Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:32 pm**

I think this is a very interesting but also very fraught discussion. To claim that paladins should less be able to take a 3 (or 4) level dip in a front-loaded class invites the claim for all level 3 dips - monk, blackguard, rogue, ranger, bard, etc. Each of these three level dips opens up a vast repertoire of options that the build would otherwise lack, and every bit of content on the server has been balanced for years around that premise, both mobs and gear.

The standing argument has always been that so long as you're following the 3 consecutive level rule, you RP your classes and your character how you see fit, sometimes even to include disregarding the class title entirely and simply RP'ing it as a specific set of learned skills (which makes sense more in some cases than others, but I digress.)

I'd prefer to see it going the opposite direction- rather than restricting these dips, continue to come up with incentives/Level 28 milestones in classes, so that dipping becomes a choice rather than a necessity. Adding these individual incentives is easier to adjust for than changing minimum class level requirements for builds - at least I would imagine it to be so

Posted: **Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:36 pm**

Saving throw bonus for paladins seems a lot like HiPs for shadowdancer. I think it should have similar treatment and be moved away from the first level to the 5th or 10th.

I think fun multi-class combinations like sorcerer/paladin are cool and should be kept viable, but should also have a different feel to them than a pure sorcerer. Something more like a light/medium armored character than can fight in melee and cast spells, but never be quite as good at either as a full mage.

Posted: **Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:53 pm**

I will concur that the 28 incentives are extremely lacking for most classes.

Rogue, Spellsword, and cleric/druid/wizard are the only ones I would say work mostly fine as 'pure' classes because caster level and epic feats are appropriate incentives for them.

A fighter taking a level 28 gains 3 AC, whereas if they would take rogue they'd gain 6 AC.
A barbarian taking level 28 gains 4 damage in rage when 2h, whereas if they took 4 fighter levels they'd get 6 damage.
A paladin taking level 28 paladin gains 1 wis and 1 damage on Deafening Clang (a rarely used spell that's generally not worth slotting and only adds to the one-minute buff routine before boss fights). By taking 3 rogue levels they gain evasion and 6 AC.
Rangers get 2 more favored enemies and a marginal damage increase.
A bard gets their cap on song AC increased to +7. By taking 3 paladin or BG levels they get 4 attacks per round and cha to saves. Ditto to sorcerers.
Monks... I don't even know anymore. Someone else can chime in.

Posted: **Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:31 am**

This thread is really disheartening. Paladin dips aren't a threat to your DCs, and players should have to change their responses to how they confront paladins as opposed to other opponents. 28 incentives shouldn't exist, but I guess this is the new whatever-mechanics of arelith. If anything needs to change, it's the DC spells — they're save or die for the majority, and that's not conducive to good PvP or roleplay.

Posted: **Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:42 am**

Ork wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:31 am This thread is really disheartening. Paladin dips aren't a threat to your DCs, and players should have to change their responses to how they confront paladins as opposed to other opponents. 28 incentives shouldn't exist, but I guess this is the new whatever-mechanics of arelith. If anything needs to change, it's the DC spells — they're save or die for the majority, and that's not conducive to good PvP or roleplay.

I’m sorry but the idea that somehow DC casters are too powerful makes me lol. I don’t have an issue with the saves BGs/pallys get and I similarly am frustrated by the attitude of “that’s powerful, I don’t have it, take it away from them!”

That said, there is a fair argument that the cheese is a little stinky on this one. Oh look I’m a holy warrior... sorta? It’s a mechanical thing for power building often not anything for RP reasons. The SD example is great. I have a SD and wish I could of gotten HIPs with only 3 lvls. That said, it’s a solid change.

Scaling the save bonus with CL would make a lot more thematic sense and avoid a kinda cheesy auto include. Either way it doesn’t matter that much IMO.

Posted: **Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:59 am**

Jordenk wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:42 am Oh look I’m a holy warrior... sorta? It’s a mechanical thing for power building often not anything for RP reasons.

This comment alone is so sad, I feel for the players you're projecting that on.

Posted: **Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:44 am**

Ork wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:59 am
Jordenk wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:42 am Oh look I’m a holy warrior... sorta? It’s a mechanical thing for power building often not anything for RP reasons.
This comment alone is so sad, I feel for the players you're projecting that on.

I think Jordenk was referring to:

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:32 pm The standing argument has always been that so long as you're following the 3 consecutive level rule, you RP your classes and your character how you see fit, sometimes even to include disregarding the class title entirely ...

I find this example particularly egregious when remembering the few times I actually observed so called 'Paladin' player characters sneak into the Andunor Slave Pits in disguise to murder the slave gladiators there for extra coin.

I would also like to support the idea of moving https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Divine_grace to level 5 paladin, treating it similar to level 5 required Hide in Plain Sight when playing a shadowdancer. This will better show the characters devotion to the concept of Paladin(or Blackguard), and the strong mechanical benefits that come with it.

===

As an aside, it is understandable that players may disagree about a concept or perspective change, that is what debates like this are for. However, please keep it civil and avoid ad hominem attacks. It makes your arguments more cogent and easier to follow without derailing the thread.

Posted: **Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:24 am**

Apokriphos wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:44 amI would also like to support the idea of moving https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Divine_grace to level 5 paladin, treating it similar to level 5 required Hide in Plain Sight when playing a shadowdancer. This will better show the characters devotion to the concept of Paladin(or Blackguard), and the strong mechanical benefits that come with it.

I am also 100% in support of this kind of change. It would discourage short dips and encourage people to actually roleplay the classes they have more.

Posted: **Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:26 am**

Nevrus wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:53 pm I will concur that the 28 incentives are extremely lacking for most classes.

A fighter taking a level 28 gains 3 AC, whereas if they would take rogue they'd gain 6 AC.

Since fighters can cross class tumble the ac of a 26/4 fighter rogue or bard and the ac of a pure fighter is exactly the same, with a total of +12 ac. Bard gives you spell craft though which is nice for adding to the degeneracy of saves. That WM damage is always going to trump builds like this though.

As for the main topic, I am with you in spirit. Its not as simple as just nerfing saves however, as wizards are always one advantage away from being dominant. While I would love to see enchantment spells for example be a thing in pvp, you would have to take something away to make it not oppressive. And therein lies the rub.

As for the whole dip for power and ignoring what the class is, as I understand it that's a server philosophy issue. And its a philosophy I fully support, because while I would thoroughly enjoy a more hardcore rp environment I know that it would chase away a fair amount of players within a year of being implemented and I like the crowd more. Be the change you want to see, and don't worry about what the next guy is doing is the best path when it comes to things like that. With some luck, you will have some positive influence on the next guy along the way.

Posted: **Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:07 pm**

Brycer can make legit lawful good warrior RP.

No need to ruin it.

You can get god like saves with a plainjain pure fighter. You can half thank our enchanting system for that (Arelith is NOT low magic anymore for years now).

Even if dcs were raised or everyone's saves were lowered, people would only spam the "i win spells" versus control save or debuff happens spells which would still stagnant variety.

We need more partial save spells where failing save is not auto and succeeding still somewhat hurts. As a damage spell disenegrate is a meh example of that (5d6 damage just is never worth an action). We need more debuff options like that.

Posted: **Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:52 pm**

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:07 pm Brycer can make legit lawful good warrior RP.

No need to ruin it.

You can get god like saves with a plainjain pure fighter. You can half thank our enchanting system for that (Arelith is NOT low magic anymore for years now).

Even if dcs were raised or everyone's saves were lowered, people would only spam the "i win spells" versus control save or debuff happens spells which would still stagnant variety.

We need more partial save spells where failing save is not auto and succeeding still somewhat hurts. As a damage spell disenegrate is a meh example of that (5d6 damage just is never worth an action). We need more debuff options like that.

Ehh I dunno. If you’re a pure fighter, even with some effort, your will save will be a viable vector for attack. But wands, scrolls and pots give you immunities too requiring another step to breach.

Avascular is a good example of what you’re saying I think. Useful enough to try even knowing the save might only succeed say, half the time or more.

Saves are fine, DCs are fine. Maybe pally/bg dips should require more lvls to get those saves, maybe not. Don’t really care to advocate for a change.

I think if we want more spells to be used we need to add minor neg effects on succeeded saves. That’s the only thing that could warrant a tweak IMO, but there are a good handful of these as it is. The problem is generally any spell below lvl 8/9 won’t have the DCs to warrant rolling the dice on in a serious fight, and without such, won’t get used. I don’t think it’s a huge deal.

Posted: **Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:56 pm**

There's nothing thematically 'right' about pushing dips to lvl 5. This argument that people need to invest more lvls to be more properly 'forced' into the classes in their character sheet is quite sad. People need to RP their classes from lvl 1, anyway.

Posted: **Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:55 pm**

Nevrus wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:53 pm Monks... I don't even know anymore. Someone else can chime in.

Monks at 28 get +2 unarmed AB, 3 unarmed damage and 1 non-ubab AB and weapon damage. You also lose 1 ac and an epic feat at 30.

Honestly I would keep on open mind on what changes can occur, we did get the division of scrolls from UMD just recently so all bets are off in that respect.
As for the various "dips" it is ultimately futile to try and enforce any kind of RP rule based on class, Arelith is too big for the staff to enforce it. I suppose the effects of blackguard/paladin CHA to saves could be lessened by placing a limit per X class level, granting them in full by 16? While it wouldn't stop dips, it would offer majority classed characters a distinct advantage for their dedication.

Posted: **Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:18 pm**

Baseili wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:55 pm Honestly I would keep on open mind on what changes can occur, we did get the division of scrolls from UMD just recently so all bets are off in that respect.

I think this is part of what motivated my question regarding the charismatic saves. Basically, there seems to be a trend towards discouraging the need/opportunity for mechanical three level dips. The reality as many have pointed out is that enforcing mechanical dips on RP is impossible. But perhaps mechanisms can be put in place to discourage their use for pure gaming. With the switch to Lore, it really discouraged the 3 level bard/rogue dip and opened up some additional styles of builds and options. I see the 3 level paly/bg dip in the same fashion (and monk for that matter). These classes are some of the most potent to just grab 3 levels. They are also deeply religious classes that RP wise would conceivably require a dedicated lifestyle. Oh I learned sleight of hand (rogue) or did community theater (bard) is a lot more conceivable than, oh I became a zealot for my god, made a pact with an evil power, or honed my physical body to perfection through training.

That being said, in the end, there are things you can do to make the dip less powerful and appealing. I'm fond of the scaling idea as it encourages actual investment in the class and consequentially encourages RP. Say the saves are capped at 2+1-per-2-levels. That would mirror COT saves and at least put a cap on dipping character saves. Something similar for monk AC might make sense too.

This would not get rid of dips. You still have access to Divine Might/Shield thanks to the dip, or for monk 10% speed and UBAB. However, it might encourage players to make a stronger investment in these classes, or at least limits saves making spells/traps/poisons etc more viable for in game use.

Posted: **Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:55 pm**

Archnon wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:18 pm These classes are some of the most potent to just grab 3 levels. They are also deeply religious classes that RP wise would conceivably require a dedicated lifestyle. Oh I learned sleight of hand (rogue) or did community theater (bard) is a lot more conceivable than, oh I became a zealot for my god, made a pact with an evil power, or honed my physical body to perfection through training.

Just touching on this in particular. 3 levels is not a lot of dedication for a level 30 character. It's the equivalent of visiting a dojo for a couple of months, or going into deeper theological debate with your local cleric and finding yourself agreeing deeply with his points.

Posted: **Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:22 am**

I believe that was the point being made, how a minor investment reaps the benefits of a class which should require a lifelong commitment simply because they are frontloaded mechanically and as such are taken purely for power, rarely because a characters path takes them there.

Posted: **Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:11 am**

Should not increase dips to lv 5, should lower them to lv 1. This idea that rp would be somehow magically increased if people were forced to take more levels in a strictly secondary class is pure delusion.

Posted: **Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:47 pm**

Baseili wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:22 am I believe that was the point being made, how a minor investment reaps the benefits of a class which should require a lifelong commitment simply because they are frontloaded mechanically and as such are taken purely for power, rarely because a characters path takes them there.

Therein lies the spirit of this thread, as I understand it.

Right now, Spellswords get to add their INT modifier to AC, but this is capped by Spellsword level/6 and has a few other limitations, like requiring a free off-hand.
Paladins and Blackguards, on the other hand, have no cap/level in the same way with their Divine Grace and Dark Blessing, respectively. In my opinion, they absolutely should. The cap need not be as harsh as level/6, but some form of cap that requires more investment would be great.
Something like a cap of level/2, with the cap entirely removed if the majority of levels are in Paladin/Blackguards.

Posted: **Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:02 pm**

This is all just a ploy to further the wizard master race agenda. Partial joking after lore changes

Thing is, the dip classes are not brocken. A brycer isn't better than the builds that use 17 blackgaurd. People still play pure warlock over blackgaurd dip (and i would too). Its just punishing sorceror options and removing a more martial oriented option of a blackgaurd and, or paladin. Which just makes races with no cha penalties further pigeon holed. (A brycer dwarf is a cool alternative to just being normal dwarf and dumping cha to 8 every time)

Posted: **Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:11 pm**

Nevrus wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:53 pm I will concur that the 28 incentives are extremely lacking for most classes.

Rogue, Spellsword, and cleric/druid/wizard are the only ones I would say work mostly fine as 'pure' classes because caster level and epic feats are appropriate incentives for them.

A fighter taking a level 28 gains 3 AC, whereas if they would take rogue they'd gain 6 AC.
A barbarian taking level 28 gains 4 damage in rage when 2h, whereas if they took 4 fighter levels they'd get 6 damage.
A paladin taking level 28 paladin gains 1 wis and 1 damage on Deafening Clang (a rarely used spell that's generally not worth slotting and only adds to the one-minute buff routine before boss fights). By taking 3 rogue levels they gain evasion and 6 AC.
Rangers get 2 more favored enemies and a marginal damage increase.
A bard gets their cap on song AC increased to +7. By taking 3 paladin or BG levels they get 4 attacks per round and cha to saves. Ditto to sorcerers.
Monks... I don't even know anymore. Someone else can chime in.

Pure fighter is actually much more viable than pure rogue. I would even take pure fighter over a 27/3 rogue. You just lose out on evasion

Tumble can be cross classed so you lose only 3 ac which gets countered by gaining 3 ac. You also gain 1 ab and damage and you also gain plus 10 discipline for pure fighter. Have all the epic feats you need to while being able to use lore for scrolls
Meanwhile a pure rogue has no discipline.

Posted: **Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:54 pm**

Exordius wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:11 am This idea that rp would be somehow magically increased if people were forced to take more levels in a strictly secondary class is pure delusion.

Posted: **Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:20 pm**

Zavandar wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:54 pm
Exordius wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:11 am This idea that rp would be somehow magically increased if people were forced to take more levels in a strictly secondary class is pure delusion.

I’m not pushing for this change, I’m apathetic at best. However, this was not the point. It’s not about improving people’s rp, that’s up to the person. It’s about having the power vested into a PC scale proportionally with ones commitment to that line of training.

The argument is there is an outsized benefit mechanically, which may or may not make sense thematically, for a 10% total investment of one’s time on ones journey as a warrior. It is also a the same with other class dips, which is why I don’t think paladin/BG should be harked on too bad (though the save benefit is extremely powerful). However, inversely there is precedent for these kinds of benefits scaling with class lvls, or being pushed back deeper into level investment.

The best comparables for similar, powerful 3 lvl dip benefits given are skill dumps and probably free evasion feat. Skill points are less compelling because though the tumble AC is nice, you still have to pay the skill points for it. Evasion is however extremely powerful and free. All in all, changing the benefits to some cap based on CL and scaling isn’t an unreasonable suggestion and would still offer a nice save boost to 3 lvl dips, while further rewarding the resilience of those who invest more deeply into the class. Spellcraft + charisma mod + basin Unis is not to be discounted offhand as it makes a character that would be otherwise “resistant” basically “immune” to DC bases spells.

Arelith

Saves, Charismatics, and Spell Balance

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