Arelith

tl;dr: Remove the Outcast background, and by extension the Outcast tag. Give evil humans and half-orcs the option to choose Andunor as a starting city.

Please consider the merits of removing the "Outcast" background and replacing it with an option for evil humans and half-orcs to start in Andunor when they click the door in the Arelith entry area. How they got there is up to the player.

Must I explain why this is a good idea? Okay, here goes:

Right now one can ascertain an outcast's status by examining them. This feature was implemented in order to make sense of the notion that evil humans and half-orcs living in the Underdark are outcasts, who got ostracized from the surface. Like many others, I believe this mechanic is extremely hostile to the spirit of a roleplaying server on which information about another character should be FOIG, not to mention the tortured mental gymnastics that go into explaining how every character on the surface keeps a mental rollodex of who the outcasts are. (For future reference, please don't feel obligated to state your views on how this makes sense in-universe. The need for an explanation is partly indicative of why there is an issue.)

I feel like my suggestion would have been a better remedy for this issue than the current system, in that it simply dissolves the issue in the first place. If my suggestion were implemented, human and half-orc PCs living in the Underdark might be there for any number of reasons, including, but not limited to, being ostracized from the surface. Perhaps they chose to go there for other nefarious reasons, and perhaps they do not hail from Arelith at all.

On one hand I agree, I've never been happy with the split of Outcast/non-Outcast human, where your backstory that had no input from the rest of the server determines how everyone treats you. What I'm going to say I suspect you'll hate, but I'll continue:

I'd rather see the Outcast thing be removed entirely for humans, their acceptance in the UD and rejection on the surface is based on RP with the PCs and powers on the surface/UD. Perhaps an option for a UD district to allow for someone to use the Hub portal etc in a sort of reverse-exile gov't ability that required the PC themselves to accept and which would auto-exile you from surface settlements. If it did remain in the game, it would be a normal award gift much like a good-aligned monster, it can make sense but requires a little something to select.

Half-orcs I've always seen as more pseudo monstrous anyway so never really made me question things. Also they're not as optimal of a choice for almost every build like human is.

I would keep Outcast-tag and let UD-races to see it too so we may finally be able to spot who is surfacer and not.

My look at this topic...and problem...

Remove outcast as whole...it should be something earned thro game and not something picked on start or even OCC seen in character sheet....

If someone wants to play in UD...we have slaves for that...
And on same note...it doesnt make sense why only humans and half-orcs are allowed to be slave...

So..I would remove outcast (maybe make it like normal/greater reward) and open up slaves for all races....

Outcasts were added because the UD population was dangerously low. I'm not in favor of their removal.

I would keep Outcast-tag and let UD-races to see it too so we may finally be able to spot who is surfacer and not.

This isn't WoW. Your char is supposed to learn these facts about another character through in-game interaction. It's so shocking and dismaying to me that a mechanic like this has become normal in so many players' eyes. How do people not understand the issue here?

I am beginning to painfully realize, perhaps too little too late, that this is not the server it used to be.

I love your idea. Remove outcast tag and let characters fraternize with whoever and wherever - the consequences come from players who invest in investigating these people.

Tags were a nice trial run but I think they ultimately detract from the server than add.

Look at the Beast Belt for an example. Back before the belt tag was a thing, people would display their victory by the 10 dark steel links in their description. Those individuals channelled more of a presence than these server-scripted beast belt tags ever did.

Remove outcast tag and let characters fraternize with whoever and wherever

Not just the tag, but, importantly, the background as well! (Just thought I'd clarify that for other readers who might be skimming this.)

Petrifictus wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:27 am I would keep Outcast-tag and let UD-races to see it too so we may finally be able to spot who is surfacer and not.

There are powerful and respectable people in the Underdark who very much live and belong there and are not outcasts

Hazard wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 3:12 pm

Petrifictus wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:27 am I would keep Outcast-tag and let UD-races to see it too so we may finally be able to spot who is surfacer and not.

There are powerful and respectable people in the Underdark who very much live and belong there and are not outcasts

I think that this is honestly the biggest issue with it. You can live in Andunor without being an outcast. By all accounts, you can live more easily and have a lot more freedom than if you started as an outcast. The background comes with absolutely no advantage or positive effect to the character - you cut yourself off from over half the server, simply so your evil character can be from the Underdark. And even then, you're not "from" the Underdark at all, because the outcast tag necessitates prior experience with the isle! On top of not being very beginner-friendly, I think it also imposes an awkward limitation on what kinds of backstories you can explore. I hate this system beyond my ability to articulate and I promise you I will never play an outcast again.

At this point, I'm honest-to-god in favor of removing the tag and making outcasts a normal reward or something if it was really so much of a problem. It's not like much would change since already people are just making their humans on the surface and moseying into Andunor with literally no problem or hostility whatsoever. If this doesn't come to pass, then at the very least, the concept of what an outcast even is or should be needs to drastically change because at the moment it is too restrictive and not the least bit fun to interact with the server as.

Cool experiment, terrible outcome.

I think it would be reasonable to keep the background and maybe add some way to end up in underdark. Though as a surfacer you're probably going to have a bad time and it is not the place where you would want to be. Because realistically speaking, if you end up in a drow city at level 3 you'll simply be collared.

magistrasa wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 4:17 pm The background comes with absolutely no advantage or positive effect to the character - you cut yourself off from over half the server, simply so your evil character can be from the Underdark.

I believe that background is not supposed to be a boon, but a RP choice bundled with consequences, many of them bad. You can also start as a slave , end up in Andunor. And I think you can end up in underdark at early level anyway, though this will be probably an exploit.

Do you guys remember other backgrounds?
http://wiki.arelith.com/Background

Even if that was the case, it's still pretty messed up that you're cutting your leg off for it. Over half the server is liable to be hostile towards you on sight for no reason other than "Description Says Outcast." It's a roleplay flavor option that is harmful to the health and versatility of roleplay on the server. When I say there's no "benefit," I mean it doesn't even accomplish what it supposedly is meant to. People who want Evil + Underdark are better off starting on the surface and migrating down. Since the background already assumes you're from the surface in the first place, there's really no difference!

Choosing to be an outcast has such damning repercussions and comes bundled with so many implications that I feel like if the tag persists, it should be a DM function only.

(Edit for clarity.)

By that attitude you might as well also cut out: (UD races), Evil classes.
Roleplay comes with consequences, and change does happen from time to time with the adding of the outcast tag. Maybe they'll let UD creatures see it, but honestly that's not why it was added. People were not taking outcast seriously and just lounging around wherever they wanted because no one could be sure who was an underdark character. Now you have perhaps the opposite, surface people lounging around in the underdark. Typically if someone isn't recognized and they aren't low level you're in for a bad time anyway.

Becoming an outcast now gives you a prompt explaining that you are choosing something that will not allow you to play as just any human. People have bitched multiple times about not liking humans in the underdark, and every time it's been shot down. Even evil elves, sorry but they're going to be here from time to time when people actually play them, and they play them damn well.

I don't understand why we're revisiting this line of thinking again. Just play what you enjoy, stop worrying so much about what everyone else is doing. Everyone seems to be so white knuckled about spies and traitors in their discord they stopped having fun, and making good stories.

I would not mind seeing the 'Rat' get his work back and allowing people to pay to be outcast again.

magistrasa wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 4:48 pm Even if that was the case, it's still pretty messed up that you're cutting your leg off for it. Over half the server is liable to be hostile towards you on sight for no reason other than "Description Says Outcast." It's a roleplay flavor option that is harmful to the health and versatility of roleplay on the server. When I say there's no "benefit," I mean it doesn't even accomplish what it supposedly is meant to. People who want Evil + Underdark are better off starting on the surface and migrating down. Since the background already assumes you're from the surface in the first place, there's really no difference!

Choosing to be an outcast has such damning repercussions and comes bundled with so many implications that I feel like if the tag persists, it should be a DM function only.

(Edit for clarity.)

Less than half. To be hostile you have to strongly care about outcast status.

Outcast article has very good guidlines:
http://wiki.arelith.com/Outcast

Non-Outcast PCs on Arelith are generally not native to the island and as such need not share the view of its common folk. Those living in one of the larger settlements will quickly learn to recognize an outcast based upon how they are treated by NPCs, but may not know the reasons for this, and are under no obligation to judge them in accordance with the local populace.

This background indicates that NPCs hate the character, while players are free to do and feel whatever. There's also a good table of possible reasons below in the link.

So if someone is quick to jump on "burn the heretic' bandwagon, that's their personal choice and not an expected reaction to the trait.

Additionally, being a walrock, necromancer, worshipper of an evil god, active memebr of a cult or evil organization will bring about the same reaction.

So all things considered, if you're picking outcast to start in Andunor, that's probably not the intended use of this trait.

I again must emphasize that I am not as such advocating for the removal of the Outcast Description Tag.

I am advocating for the removal of the Outcast background completely, to be replaced with an option for evil humans and half-orcs to choose Andunor as a starting location.

I would be appreciative if the discussion could focus on that point.

In my view, the Outcast background was never the right idea to begin with; it has created a problem where there need not be one. Whether Outcasts should be recognized as Outcasts is moot. If my idea were implemented, it would obviate any need to have that debate.

As for the argument that surfacers should not be allowed to go down into Andunor because they're surfacers: it's well established by now that Andunor is very much like the city of Skullport, which tolerates evil surfacers. This is not Udos Dro'xun or Urblexis Grond; those days are over. If you wish for a return to those days, bring it about IC.

Removal of outcast background woudln't improve anything and feels pointless. People keep it out of their free will, nobody is forced into it, and consequences are well explained. I think a better idea is to keep it.

Regarding Andunor being a trade city that can be belief of individiaul player and not actual state of the city (which is deceded by DM team and develoeprs).

Even if Andunor is a trade city, it is a chaotic evil trade city. Meaning in order to be there value of character being alive should be higher than value of said character being enslaved, murdered, robbed, tortured, used a sacrifice or food and so on. This requires wealth, strength, connections, and a beginner character wouldn't have any.

However, it would be reasonable to allow andunor start for evil character if it is gated beyond a Normal award (or greater award, depending on race).

That's how I see it.

I like the original suggestion. Tags are a mistake and encourage lazy RP.

I don't think we should be removing or gating outcasts behind an award, Andunor is not a 'Drow City' and never has been. It's an Upperdark trading city, and trade and profit relies on being open to as many people as possible.

Further, I think alignment restrictions are a poor idea and encourage this awful Good vs Evil / Red vs Blue / Surface vs Underdark RP and Kill on sight PVP.

I'd also like to see some NPC Duergar traders around the surface and shifty human traders in Andunor.

If its removed, I like the idea of gating humans starting in the underdark behind the same reward that good drow need. Its a huge advantage to be able to traverse both cities without anyone looking twice, one that gives Andunor more of an edge then they already have since monster races are supposed to go raid stuff.

That being said, every time this comes up its pointed out that taking the outcast path means you did something pre-creation that put you in said position of evil notoriety. That also works both ways, since while the surface cities hate you the underdark lets you do your thing without drow sacrificing you along the way. So lazy rp or not, the badge is doing what its supposed to. While I can certainly see the "lazy rp" side, choices should have consequences. So while I suppose the DMs could stop being "lazy" and start enforcing people playing their characters more in line with how they are supposed to be played, that would open a much bigger can of worms, one that is no fun for anyone.

So yeah, the badges seem like a fine solution to me.

saw how things were before the tag, prefer how it is now

biggest problem i have is how to react IC to it, though. as far as i am aware, there is nothing explicitly explaining how this should be done.

I would love the complete removal of the option to choose Outcast as a human. Instead, buff Drow elves so they can be the real threatening force that they're meant to be in the Forgotten Realms.

The major reason people choose Human Outcast over Drow is mechanical. If Drow were made much, much stronger, there'd be a bigger incentive to play them.

MissEvelyn wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 10:07 pm I would love the complete removal of the option to choose Outcast as a human. Instead, buff Drow elves so they can be the real threatening force that they're meant to be in the Forgotten Realms.

The major reason people choose Human Outcast over Drow is mechanical. If Drow were made much, much stronger, there'd be a bigger incentive to play them.

Again this just isn't true. Drow have a lot of mechanical superior builds compared to humans and by and large enjoy across the board at least +1 AC due to not relying on the SR helm.

In a perfect world, DMs and the playerbase work together to make reactions to Outcast PCs suitable as for their nature.

DMs use the ambient world, NPCs, etc. to make Outcasts feel capital-letters Unwelcome, or justifiably paranoid that if their (obviously obscured) identity is revealed they might suffer consequences.

Players would react to Outcast PCs in a mature way: neither instant leaping to disrespectful PVP in effort to "disregard" antagonist RP, or blindly accepting them out of an OOC-born conflict aversion.

Sadly, we don't live in a perfect world. DMs can't be expected to put in the significant effort making the world feel "alive" requires all the time, or even that often, on top of all the administrative duties they have to perform.

As for the playerbase, well... we've got the tags now for a reason, don't we?

MissEvelyn wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 10:07 pm The major reason people choose Human Outcast over Drow is mechanical. If Drow were made much, much stronger, there'd be a bigger incentive to play them.

I don't think it's just mechanical. Drow RP is a foreign language to a lot of people including myself. It's very demanding to do it right and there's a high expectation of lore knowledge from other drow players.

I think humans are chosen more often because the RP is wide open even on an outcast, not to mention the potential to do everything and go everywhere especially if you invest in disguise. You could make "outcast" a major gift requiring giving up one of their +2 stats and you'd still see them heavily played.

That said I'd have nothing against making drow more fearsome and powerful. They and svirfs seem stuck in 2008. At least lower the ECL to 1 and allow for a stat gift (like Duergar get, who are way underplayed and much stronger mechanically than both human and drow if you aren't playing a charisma class.)

strong yeet wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 10:10 pm In a perfect world, DMs and the playerbase work together to make reactions to Outcast PCs suitable as for their nature.

DMs use the ambient world, NPCs, etc. to make Outcasts feel capital-letters Unwelcome, or justifiably paranoid that if their (obviously obscured) identity is revealed they might suffer consequences.

Players would react to Outcast PCs in a mature way: neither instant leaping to disrespectful PVP in effort to "disregard" antagonist RP, or blindly accepting them out of an OOC-born conflict aversion.

Sadly, we don't live in a perfect world. DMs can't be expected to put in the significant effort making the world feel "alive" requires all the time, or even that often, on top of all the administrative duties they have to perform.

As for the playerbase, well... we've got the tags now for a reason, don't we?

You've more or less summed up my thoughts.

Everyone is right, in the perfect world we wouldn't need tags. Sadly, prior to the tag, outcast basicaly meant 'Universily Adored PC Who Is Welcomed Everywhere. ' It sucks, but the tag was needed so that people could treat them as they're meant to be treated.

See also Irongron's thoughts on the matter as reference:
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=25991&p=210323

Thank you.

DangerDolphin wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 8:29 pm I like the original suggestion. Tags are a mistake and encourage lazy RP.

Tags exist to avoid all sorts of cheating.

Like that champion chains. Without tags you can wear it, and remove it from your description, so PCs won't be upset.
Same goes for slave collars.

Bluff and Perform exist for a reason.