PVE Dispel too often // Lv28 Mundane Char

[Biolab00]

I've no idea if others are also experiencing the same problem after the patched up but it occurs for me.

I have been raiding Viper Temple for a few times before but this matter doesn't happen and somehow just today after the patch-up, those Acolyte can actually fully dispel all my animal buffs, including barkskin and skleen, in a single dispel cast, almost everytime.

I've actually met 4 encounters straight there and simply 1 single dispel from them each time can take away all the buffs.
I'm pretty sure that it doesn't happen that often when i was raiding Viper Temple before.

Mechanically, my PC is level 28 toon. It was said that Mundane buff from potion is calculated as 12 + PC level.
Hence, for lv 28 PC, to dispel my PC, i believed that you need to roll at least a 41.
It's kinda unbelievable that NPC dispel can strip me off 4 Animal buffs + barkskin + skleen + mage armor, all coming from potion, in a single cast.

Am i missing something, somewhere?

[Aren]

Do you have caster levels of any sort? And did you use any spells of said class?

[Kalopsia]

Perhaps the dispels are broken and lack the CL22 cap.

[Biolab00]

My level 28 is a Mundane Fighter Char.
And i'm using potion.
There's no spells at all though

[Void]

Mechanically, my PC is level 28 toon. It was said that Mundane buff from potion is calculated as 12 + PC level.
Hence, for lv 28 PC, to dispel my PC, i believed that you need to roll at least a 41.
It's kinda unbelievable that NPC dispel can strip me off 4 Animal buffs + barkskin + skleen + mage armor, all coming from potion, in a single cast.

Am i missing something, somewhere?

Can you throw the reference to article which said that? Normally the dispel difficulty would be equivalent to caster level inherent to the item. Meaning Bull Strength 12 would have caster level of 12, and dispel DC of 24.
https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Dispel

What's more to roll 41, you'd need level 21 caster who would need to get lucky.

[Biolab00]

Mechanically, my PC is level 28 toon. It was said that Mundane buff from potion is calculated as 12 + PC level.
Hence, for lv 28 PC, to dispel my PC, i believed that you need to roll at least a 41.
It's kinda unbelievable that NPC dispel can strip me off 4 Animal buffs + barkskin + skleen + mage armor, all coming from potion, in a single cast.

Am i missing something, somewhere?

Can you throw the reference to article which said that? Normally the dispel difficulty would be equivalent to caster level inherent to the item. Meaning Bull Strength 12 would have caster level of 12, and dispel DC of 24.
https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Dispel

What's more to roll 41, you'd need level 21 caster who would need to get lucky.

Below is quoted directly from one of the reply in this forum from another topic

"As it stands with 9 levels in ranger, your companion is an RP token and anything cast from the spell book is dispel bait. Further, with a wand or potion, your CL may actually be higher than your raw ranger CL and will have a 30 mundane for purposes of dispel. So way better move to cast anything from there. Further, at 9 ranger levels you only unlock level 2 spells without items"

I'm a mundane lv28 raw fighter and all these buff comes from potion which belongs to mundane. Hence, I should have CL level of 28 for resisting dispel. Your information is wrong

[Void]

"As it stands with 9 levels in ranger, your companion is an RP token and anything cast from the spell book is dispel bait. Further, with a wand or potion, your CL may actually be higher than your raw ranger CL and will have a 30 mundane for purposes of dispel. So way better move to cast anything from there. Further, at 9 ranger levels you only unlock level 2 spells without items"

This kind of thing, in my opinion, has to be stated by the devs, because they have access to server scripts and know exactly how dispel checks work, and if stated by someone else, it is unclear whether this is true or not. The poster also said "MAY be higher" and they're not a dev.

I'm not seeing any information on caster level of items regarding nwn online, and I'm not seeing any information regarding arelith caster online, and checking forum threads I'm not seeing where this information is originating from.

Of course, it doesn't help that this forum isn't being indexed by google, maybe it is buried somewhere deep on the forum, only to be never found.

I'd suggest to grab a buddy and test the dispel theory on arelith PGCC.

[garrbear758]

There's a lot of incorrect information in here.

Dispel CL when you CAST any spell will be your applicable CL.

Dispel CL when you use an ITEM (scrolls, potions, wands, etc.) will be your Hit Die, aka CHARACTER LEVEL.

[Void]

There's a lot of incorrect information in here.

Dispel CL when you CAST any spell will be your applicable CL.

Dispel CL when you use an ITEM (scrolls, potions, wands, etc.) will be your Hit Die, aka CHARACTER LEVEL.

Actually... I'd still recommend to go to PGCC and test.

It occured to me that OP said that he never had this problem before, but has this problem now.

Meaning something could've changed between patches.

[Gwenneth_Corvain]

Something seems different. My pureclass level 10 barbarian just got his Rage-ability removed by a lesser dispel from the Skaljard bullywog priests, along with his herbalism-brewed potion of giants strenght (15).

Their lesser dispel reliably removes all zoo-buffs on my mundane character.


https://ibb.co/tLqZtwH

[Quidix]

Dispel CL when you use an ITEM (scrolls, potions, wands, etc.) will be your Hit Die, aka CHARACTER LEVEL.

I want to be clear, this is not how it works. I thought it worked this way and actually made a mixed-caster that was reliant on potion and wand buffs - they got dispelled all the time, even from lesser dispels (the character was level 26).

[Kalopsia]

Dispel CL when you use an ITEM (scrolls, potions, wands, etc.) will be your Hit Die, aka CHARACTER LEVEL.

I want to be clear, this is not how it works. I thought it worked this way and actually made a mixed-caster that was reliant on potion and wand buffs - they got dispelled all the time, even from lesser dispels (the character was level 26).

As soon as characters cast a spell, all items they use afterwards will use their caster level to determine dispel resistance.

An example:
A Fighter27 / Wizard 3 build could fully buff with wands and retain CL30 against dispels. Once any wizard spell has been cast from their spellbook, the dispel CL for all buffs obtained via wizard spells, wands or mundane items will be 3, which means even a Lesser Dispel would reliably strip those wards.

[Quidix]

Absolutely, there was the possibility of someone reading the earlier conversation and concluding that wand & potion is always Character Level, so I wanted to point out this is only the case while remaining mundane. I could have been clearer on that point.

Does it really revert to item level rather than Caster Level though? Based on testing it on the PGCC, it seems to revert to Caster Level, but I could be wrong. What is your view based on?

[Gwenneth_Corvain]

Dispel CL when you use an ITEM (scrolls, potions, wands, etc.) will be your Hit Die, aka CHARACTER LEVEL.

I want to be clear, this is not how it works. I thought it worked this way and actually made a mixed-caster that was reliant on potion and wand buffs - they got dispelled all the time, even from lesser dispels (the character was level 26).

As soon as characters cast a spell, all items they use afterwards will use their caster level to determine dispel resistance.

An example:
A Fighter27 / Wizard 3 build could fully buff with wands and retain CL30 against dispels. Once any wizard spell has been cast from their spellbook, the dispel CL for all buffs obtained via wizard spells, wands or mundane items will be 3, which means even a Lesser Dispel would reliably strip those wards.

That is why i say something feels different as of late. My character does not even have the ability to cast anything. It is a pureclass mundane barbarian without any spells or spelllike abilities that could trigger this. He uses exclusively potions. No wands, no scrolls.

And still those buffs get stripped by even the weakest dispel whereas they used to stick more often than not before.

[garrbear758]

Wrong.

What I said about items is how it works as of a few months ago. Beamdog fixed that "bug."

[garrbear758]

I'm looking into the initial report, but we havent changed anything on our end. Beamdog may have changed something in the update, but I think that's unlikely.

[garrbear758]

Nothing has been changed recently in regard to dispels. If you can pull screenshots or logs showing me that dispel CL from certain mobs is higher than it should be for the relevant spell, that would be something I could use to look into it. Otherwise, I don't really have anything to go on here sorry.

The CL=character level for items change was the last change that was made to dispels and that was a few months ago. If you still don't believe me on it, make a 5 bard 25 fighter on pgcc and a level 20ish caster for ease of testing. Have the bard buff then dispel them. Have them drink a potion or use a wand after, and they shouldn't get dispelled.

[Orian_666]

Just going to add to this that i've experienced the same.
I've run Vipers since early 20's, very early on they could dispel my character a bit but from around mid 20's they couldn't.

Currently at level 30 and just as of late, like the last few days to a week, a single dispel is removing most buffs from Pots or Wands even though my character is level 30 and hasn't cast any class spells at all.

I do have Ranger levels but don't use any of the spells because I don't have enough Wisdom to even prep them let alone cast them.

Basically pre 30 from around mid 20's their dispels weren't getting through at all, now all of a sudden and at 30 most buffs are dispelled in one go.

[garrbear758]

Just going to add to this that i've experienced the same.
I've run Vipers since early 20's, very early on they could dispel my character a bit but from around mid 20's they couldn't.

Currently at level 30 and just as of late, like the last few days to a week, a single dispel is removing most buffs from Pots or Wands even though my character is level 30 and hasn't cast any class spells at all.

I do have Ranger levels but don't use any of the spells because I don't have enough Wisdom to even prep them let alone cast them.

Basically pre 30 from around mid 20's their dispels weren't getting through at all, now all of a sudden and at 30 most buffs are dispelled in one go.

Is it only vipers this is happening with or other areas as well?

And what specific spell are they casting that is doing this? I don't currently have a character that can run up there to test it.

[garrbear758]

Something seems different. My pureclass level 10 barbarian just got his Rage-ability removed by a lesser dispel from the Skaljard bullywog priests, along with his herbalism-brewed potion of giants strenght (15).

Their lesser dispel reliably removes all zoo-buffs on my mundane character.


https://ibb.co/tLqZtwH

Sorry I missed your screenshot my first time looking through. I just verfied the script and rage is extraordinary so should not be getting dispelled. I'm leaning towards this being a Beamdog problem not an Arelith problem but I'll keep digging.

This might seem like a dumb question, but can you confirm that you actually lost the rage effects? Some things can give that message without actually removing the effects of it.

[garrbear758]

So, my only 2 characters I have right now are in UD and in the mid teens, so I can't exactly go verify these. More screenshots and/or videos would be extremely useful in trying to sort this out.

[Orian_666]

Just going to add to this that i've experienced the same.
I've run Vipers since early 20's, very early on they could dispel my character a bit but from around mid 20's they couldn't.

Currently at level 30 and just as of late, like the last few days to a week, a single dispel is removing most buffs from Pots or Wands even though my character is level 30 and hasn't cast any class spells at all.

I do have Ranger levels but don't use any of the spells because I don't have enough Wisdom to even prep them let alone cast them.

Basically pre 30 from around mid 20's their dispels weren't getting through at all, now all of a sudden and at 30 most buffs are dispelled in one go.

Is it only vipers this is happening with or other areas as well?

And what specific spell are they casting that is doing this? I don't currently have a character that can run up there to test it.

I haven't been anywhere else enough to confirm if it's anywhere but the vipers, definitely happening in vipers.
Don't get me wrong now though, i don't mind being dispelled, but if it's an unknown or unintended change then I thought i'd at least speak up of my experience with it too

[Quidix]

Wrong.

What I said about items is how it works as of a few months ago. Beamdog fixed that "bug."

Are you saying it should use Character Level for items even after I have cast a spell?

If so, here's a real situation from 2-3 weeks ago, where this was not the case. This also shows it's not just vipers:
- Level 26 character, roughly 14 paladin and 12 bard levels
- Uses a variety of wand buffs (eg bull's strength etc)
- Fights the halfbreed camp in orclands, and encounters shamans
- Shamans cast lesser dispel, which strips a lot of the buffs (both cast from spellbook and items - the former I understand)
- If it was Character Level from items, my character should not have been able to lose any item buffs

Off memory, I tried applying item buffs both before and after using spellbook, and the results were similar (though not 100%).

[garrbear758]

Wrong.

What I said about items is how it works as of a few months ago. Beamdog fixed that "bug."

Are you saying it should use Character Level for items even after I have cast a spell?

If so, here's a real situation from 2-3 weeks ago, where this was not the case. This also shows it's not just vipers:
- Level 26 character, roughly 14 paladin and 12 bard levels
- Uses a variety of wand buffs (eg bull's strength etc)
- Fights the halfbreed camp in orclands, and encounters shamans
- Shamans cast lesser dispel, which strips a lot of the buffs (both cast from spellbook and items - the former I understand)
- If it was Character Level from items, my character should not have been able to lose any item buffs

Off memory, I tried applying item buffs both before and after using spellbook, and the results were similar (though not 100%).

Yes that is what I'm saying, and your situation doesn't have anything to do with that, although it does help with the initial report.

Lesser dispel's max dice roll is 25. If you have 12 CL on your spells, then your DC for dispel will be 24, aka what should be a 19 or 20 for the dispel roll. Therefore, at that caster level casting from items or not won't really make a difference vs lesser dispel, and anything above that it will be identical.

[Sockss]

Wrong.

What I said about items is how it works as of a few months ago. Beamdog fixed that "bug."

Is this an Arelith only fix? (Or a NWNX fix?)

Do you have a link to Beamdog fixing it? I can't find anything!

It certainly works the way Kalopsia described in SP testing.

You use your character level, until you cast, at which point your caster level gets updated.
Then you use your caster level for everything after, until it gets updated again.

So a 27/3 fighter/wizard would have +3 to their dispel check on everything if they cast light naturally, as oppose to +30.

Testing

CHL- Character Level (Provided using an item buff)
CL - Caster Level

> Setting a dispel effect to 1CL, you get a maximum roll of 21 (using the standard spellsDispelMagic)
> You are able to be dispelled at both CHL 1 and CL 1.
> Creating a Bard 1 / Barbarian 29, you have a CHL30 and CL1 (for natural casts)
> You are not able to be dispelled by the dispel effect at CHL 30, if you haven't cast naturally.
> Despite being CHL30, once you cast at CL1, all buffs (Both natural and from items) after are dispellable

I'd presume it's similar to the problem with GetCasterLevel, which has had the same behaviour forever, in that it returns the caster level of the last spell you've cast. Unless you haven't cast anything, in which case it returns 0.