Arelith

So, compared to 20 fighter/7 weapons master/3 rogue and pally 26/7 X 3/4, CoT's are lacking. Here's what I su...feedback what they could use for a little boost. Feel free to tell me why I'm stupid below.


Give Divine Champions:
Level 3, turn undead
level 5 +1 armor ac (as if a fighter for all of the ac boosts)
level 8 + 1 deflection ac
level 10 +1 strength
level 11 +1 shield ac
level13 +1 armor ac
level 16 +1 deflection ac
level 19 +1 shield ac
level 20 +1 strength

Well, because they get an awesome save progression AND fighter feat progression natively? There would be absolutely no reason to otherwise choose fighter.

Personally, I agree they need some tuning. Here I would suggest lowering their very long cool-downs. In the era of 2 minute rages and 12 second HiPS, 8 and 10 minutes seem unbearably long.

I do like the idea of somehow getting them turn undead to increase build diversity, because this is practically required as it is.

Turn undead opens up divine might and shield. That would redline the needle towards overpowered.

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:28 am So, compared to 20 fighter/7 weapons master/3 rogue and pally 26/7 X 3/4, CoT's are lacking. Here's what I su...feedback what they could use for a little boost. Feel free to tell me why I'm stupid below.


Give Divine Champions:
Level 3, turn undead
level 5 +1 armor ac (as if a fighter for all of the ac boosts)
level 8 + 1 deflection ac
level 10 +1 strength
level 11 +1 shield ac
level13 +1 armor ac
level 16 +1 deflection ac
level 19 +1 shield ac
level 20 +1 strength

From my standpoint....weird bonuses...

If I would change CoT in any way....it would be one or even all of those:

1) make it base class so people can choose between Fighter with saves but no +5 weapon, or fighter without saves with +5 weapon (lets be clear....CoT is basicly path for fighter )

2) Give CoT turn undead and option to pick divine shield/might

3) Make it so divine wrath automaticly apply divine shield and divine might (if PC have those feats...So if you Play something like CoT/pala you dont spend 3 turns to just buff up every few minutes...This would especialy help in PVP)

4) Make divine wrath instant action....like barbarian rage...

5) Make that CD on divine wrath little lower...take example from barbar....Make it atleast 3 minutes...so If you are crazy enough to go full charisma build you can get close to perma divine wrath (Thats not so insane if you think about it...we have barbs with rage on low CD and rogues with permahaste....so...why not this?)

Mattamue wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:54 am Turn undead opens up divine might and shield. That would redline the needle towards overpowered.

Yes, but are you really going to make one without it...even now?

Especially now that you can make one with Blackguard?

I wouldn't...

cot doesn't need buffs

I always thought the duration of Divine Wrath is a bit too short, still. I also think a cooldown reduction bonus at lvl 20 Cot would be interesting. Buffing their unbuffed stats and ac like fighters, isnt a good idea.

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:28 am So, compared to 20 fighter/7 weapons master/3 rogue and pally 26/7 X 3/4, CoT's are lacking. Here's what I su...feedback what they could use for a little boost. Feel free to tell me why I'm stupid below.

It is already nearly a "Fighter 2.0" with superior saves (reflex and fort), which is ridiculously popular on arelith due to mechanical strength. The only drawback is religious thing associated with it, which sadly has no piety cost.

No point in buffing it further.

Also, you're comparing it with an optimized build and want it to reach the same power as that.

RedGiant wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:58 am

Mattamue wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:54 am Turn undead opens up divine might and shield. That would redline the needle towards overpowered.

Yes, but are you really going to make one without it...even now?

Especially now that you can make one with Blackguard?

I wouldn't...

I would. CoT is really good. They're fighters with a big AB/DMG steroid that are functionally immune to all magic that allows saves. Are there more "optimal" classes? Sure. But CoT is still really, really good.

Just going by this, CoT does not need a boost.

Flower Power wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:03 am

RedGiant wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:58 am

Mattamue wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:54 am Turn undead opens up divine might and shield. That would redline the needle towards overpowered.

Yes, but are you really going to make one without it...even now?

Especially now that you can make one with Blackguard?

I wouldn't...

I would. CoT is really good. They're fighters with a big AB/DMG steroid that are functionally immune to all magic that allows saves. Are there more "optimal" classes? Sure. But CoT is still really, really good.

No one is saying CoT is garbage. (Until some edge-lord pops on and does...) My comments weren't comparing them to other builds, they were talking about CoT combinations that exist now.

Sure, you can make one without Divine Might and Divine Shield, but it will be objectively worse.

My point is Mattamue's worry isn't really a worry, because its already possible with the practically mandatory cleric/paladin/blackguard dip now. I think most people /will/ opt for builds that include this already, because why wouldn't you snag the on-demand +10 AC that even a modest ending CHA of 18 nets you? Especially considering this is also the stat which drives your Divine Wrath duration, etc.

All I'm saying is that the suggestion to give them turn undead isn't terrible, because it will increase build diversity without moving the needle greatly from where it's at already. Its also hard, nay impossible, to go full super-sayan CoT (i.e. lvl 20) with some of the other classes that could push this over the top, due to them also being PRCs and this being a 30 lvl server. I am not seeing much out there on the horizon that is more game-breaking than anything possible now, especially when on factors in BG.


*Edit:
I think I have ended up arguing the one point of Babylon's I agreed with more than my own. To reiterate my stance, if anything needs done to CoT, it is to shorten the cooldowns on their 8 and 10 minute abilities. This is so infrequent that the casual player might get to use their cookie only a couple of three times a night. This alone would probably prevent me from ever playing one.

If i were going to do something with COT i would split it off more from Paladin and Blackguard by removing the charisma requirement for the skills. I would make the all three COT feats be Charisma, Wisdom or Intelligence, whichever is greater. Then you could actually encourage some build diversity away from the super strict, must invest in charisma style. COT seems uniquely able to do that by providing some but not all of the benefits, while adding in nice saves and extra feats. You could get Mystran wizards, Rangers with a COT dip, or even rogues or monks.

As is, I think it is a really strong class, it just purely synergizes with a few existing classes and not enough given the broader idea of a divine champion.

Buffing CoT seems like the most unnecessary thing right now.

"A 58ish AB character that can one shot a good 90 percent of all the characters

Give them more buffs!"

If you think they need buffs, you're probably not building one properly.

Also this is coming from someone who has a lvl 30 CoT in the vault not to seem like I'm talking about of my rear.

Nah seems okay to me. This is literally the wiki entry on cot.

Alignment restriction removed. Any alignment, including evil, can play Champion of Torm
The Champion of Torm can be roleplayed as a Divine Champion of any deity. Playing a CoT of an evil deity is allowed now on Arelith
Lay on Hands has a 10 minutes CD period.
Divine Wrath:
Has an 8 minutes CD period.
It has a duration of 3 + 1/2 CoT level + Charisma mod in rounds.
The damage reduction works as follows: Level 5: 5/+3 - Level 10: 5/+3 - Level 15: 10/+4 - Level 20: 15/+5
For the purpose of Turn Undead, cleric and paladins level stack.

The fighters is a lot longer.

Probably could use some boost at really epic pure champion levels or whatnot. Just a brief look at the wikis opinion.

https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Champion_of_Torm
They've got the base abilities here, too. Extra feats, saves, damage/AB from divine wrath.

Getting potentially +7-9 to ab and damage, without even touching their bonus feats, insane saves or their DR is incredibly strong. The highest possible DPS melee build involves 15 CoT, so I'm going to go ahead and say that they don't need buffs.

Their cooldown for divine wrath could use a tweak. They don't really flow in PvE and itd be nice to have access to their one ability more frequently. Reducing from 10 to 6 shouldn't have much impact on PvP.

Ork wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:29 pm Their cooldown for divine wrath could use a tweak. They don't really flow in PvE and itd be nice to have access to their one ability more frequently. Reducing from 10 to 6 shouldn't have much impact on PvP.

Agreed! Divine Wrath cooldown is the only thing I'd change about Divine Champions.
The class is strong enough otherwise.

Ork wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:29 pm Their cooldown for divine wrath could use a tweak. They don't really flow in PvE and itd be nice to have access to their one ability more frequently. Reducing from 10 to 6 shouldn't have much impact on PvP.

I second this as well. No other changes needed.

But is the COT a DPS?

Ork wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:29 pm Their cooldown for divine wrath could use a tweak. They don't really flow in PvE and itd be nice to have access to their one ability more frequently. Reducing from 10 to 6 shouldn't have much impact on PvP.

And why not make it cost piety. It is a divine champion, after all.

Also, the fighter sort of matches the COT's divine wrath with it's own base advancement chart, but permanently.

+3 AB and damage
+2 strength for 1 more AB/damage
+2 strength from not needing charisma

So total +5 AB/Damage base if comparing a fighter 7 cot 20 with fighter 28. That's compared to the +9 AB/damage from wrath.

The fighter gets an AC boost which would put it in better stats if making the AC of the COT equal with expertise mode.

Hehe let's sit here and think about it what's better a fighter or a COT?

Thats also +10 Universal saves from CoT level, and +7 from wrath. IF you compare 20 CoT with 28 fighter, there is also the important fact that you wont dip anything to that fighter, while you still have 10 levels to play with in CoT case. Also CoT bonus damage is not physical, it bypasses immunities and reductions, thats good too. 10/+4 is still usefull agains people with +3 weapons, as well. And that +2 strength because you dont need charisma is not really good, because you dont really need charisma for CoT as well, it only adds some duration, but 15 lvl CoT has 10base + some charisma from buffs.

One thing I would like to see added to COT are the social skills.

I know they are martial champions, but it would still be nice for champions of deities focused upon things like peace/fear/deception to be able to have the skills to back up their inclinations.



And totally not because I don't want to have to save the last two levels of PDK until epic to get intimidate up.

Yeah OK, so that is why I noticed their absence, but it still makes sense to me for them to be an option. Sure not every god would expect or even desire their champions to be skilled in those areas, but for some gods it would almost seem bizarre for them not to be.

mourisson1 wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:58 pm Thats also +10 Universal saves from CoT level, and +7 from wrath. IF you compare 20 CoT with 28 fighter, there is also the important fact that you wont dip anything to that fighter, while you still have 10 levels to play with in CoT case. Also CoT bonus damage is not physical, it bypasses immunities and reductions, thats good too. 10/+4 is still usefull agains people with +3 weapons, as well. And that +2 strength because you dont need charisma is not really good, because you dont really need charisma for CoT as well, it only adds some duration, but 15 lvl CoT has 10base + some charisma from buffs.

That part about the charisma is weird lol. It's like let's just ignore the secondary stat for the class
Yeah I was forgetting about Areliths multi restrictions never mind, it's basically 27 fighter 3 rogue vs 7 fighter 20 cot and 3 rogue.

But really, here's the truth as I see it. All these comparisons are done with divine wrath UP, which is weird because it lasts from the wiki 3 + 1/2 CoT level + Charisma mod in rounds and then it has a huge cooldown period. If I was a COT, I wouldn't move at all without my wrath, but a fighter can just go with +5 AC -5 ab compared to wrath.

Yeah the champion gets saves, and the DR isn't dispellable whereas a fighter with lore can get greater stoneskin or premonition scrolls which exceed the DR for the COT wrath bonus.
For thoroughness, a champion with extra smiting general feat can also 3/day get +5-8 to attack (cha mod) and +20 to damage against evil creatures. 3 uses is pretty low.

So basically, we trade a +5 ac boost for permanent saves and a 3/day smiting ability, with divine wrath making us equal if we use expertise mode, or +5 ab/damage but -5 ac in improved expertise mode.
Also, the fighter can always surpass +5 dr.

Summary, it seems it's totally dependent on divine wrath, which seems totally short duration and huge cooldown. Right now it totally seems one and done. Fighters can just go go go.