Arelith

I think losing outcast is a bad move, requested by people who argued in bad faith, celebrated by people who wanted to have the cake of a populated UD and the eat it too of a UD only populated by what they want. I think it will have negative effects in the future, for both population and roleplay in the UD. Maybe it'll work out. 'Cautiously pessimistic.'

All that out of the way. New/Improved races for the UD, in no particular order.

*Drow moved to a 20 rpr

*Goblins moved to, god, I don't know, they're the worst though

*Half-drow replacing human in the 'I want my character to not look like wildly expired polygons/be taller than 2 feet on screen' slot. Trust me when I say 50% bare minimum of why outcasts get made over anything is that the models for everything else look busted. Just half elf with darkvision. Before you engage the rage know this: FR lore is wildly contradictory and half-drow are a thing in both the UD and the surface, meaning they don't all get killed at birth or whatever the hell, AND: I'm not going to debate anything on this post.

*Szarkai (Ghost Spiders) as a high tier reward options

*Reduced-reward-cost Yuan-ti with the outcast tag, making them objectively worse yuan-ti.

*Tieflings, as above

*Did you know Menzoberranzan, the archetypal badly written drow city, has free drow, humans, and orcs, but all goblins, kobolds, svirfs, minotaurs, etc are slaves? Anyway, outcast again but it's rpr locked. OR: Now that outcasts are a reward race, remove all the weird outcast tagging stuff, because they're worse humans now.

*Gloamling

*I can't remember what race that assassin lady is when you're coming into the Greyport, but that one.

NOTE: I'm not going to answer questions at this time. If you wish to debate me, find the Smooth Lions Are Eating Me twitter thread and have the debate there, by proxy. Sharks are smooth as hell, as are my kickin opinions.

Drowboy wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:42 amNow that outcasts are a reward race, remove all the weird outcast tagging stuff, because they're worse humans now.

big yes

edit: PLAYABLE

MYCONIDS

NOW.

I do agree that population needs to be monitored, Outcasts and Slaves outnumber the Monster Races in the UD considerably.

The Surface does also have a greater potential to find a "Baddy" faction what with a significant number of "Baddy Camps" with Sencliff, Church of Bane and so on.

The UD should be favourable for the UD races, with Outcasts and Slaves being a gift option to moderate the number, this itself to remind the population that an Outcast is an exile forced into the dark, not just a "My mate Tom is popping over this side of the water soon too"

CookieMonster wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:02 pm I do agree that population needs to be monitored, Outcasts and Slaves outnumber the Monster Races in the UD considerably.

The Surface does also have a greater potential to find a "Baddy" faction what with a significant number of "Baddy Camps" with Sencliff, Church of Bane and so on.

The UD should be favourable for the UD races, with Outcasts and Slaves being a gift option to moderate the number, this itself to remind the population that an Outcast is an exile forced into the dark, not just a "My mate Tom is popping over this side of the water soon too"

they already did this

New races would be great.

I don't think anything should be locked behind an award tbh, given the award system is largely based on how much time you spent grinding xp without RP. If we need to have some limit to avoid too many characters that are special races, it should be random or based on how many are currently being played.

Having to spend a week or so circle grinding a mark of humility goblin to roll, is certainly one way to judge how committed and serious a player is about playing an outcast human.

Drowboy wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:42 am All that out of the way. New/Improved races for the UD, in no particular order.

Driders?

Also is this a request or a feature report? THis is not on the wiki.

Chosen Son wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:29 am Having to spend a week or so circle grinding

It takes a week only if you play 24/7 and has no other responsibilities.

If you are going to use quotes, please consider all that was posted.

Irongron wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 7:36 am

Void wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:28 pm Well, in outcast discussion Irongorn said that outcasts are the only reason why underdark is still on the server, so... (-_-)

Cautious pessimism is probably the way to do it.

I did indeed, and it is very much true. As we said in update post this is something of a trial period.


I took the decision on this personally, with a great deal of support from the team.

This has been a divisive issue, no doubt, with strong opinions on both sides. There are a few facts that guided this decision though.

1. Underdark is very much changed from where it was 5 years ago, and may no longer need the presence of outcasts to flourish.

2. A great many people simply weren't roleplaying the outcast nature of their character, and locked behind a reward may feel more compelled to.

3. This was introduced when the only other starting option was Cordor, with no 'evil' start. This is very different now, especially with Sencliff. Humans probably dont need 4 options.

4. We have added more underdark races since outcast, and will continue to do so.


None of the above means I'm convinced of this change, far from it. If anything I'm a great proponent of outcasts, but I do at least believe there is little to be lost by listening to alternative point of view and giving this a try.


Finally - please remember this is a KUDOS thread, and it is never an appropriate place to complain about a change

If you like this change then celebrate it here, if it makes you upset then the correct procedure is to shout about at traffic passing your home or workplace.

(Or use feedback forum)

The aspect of which Irongron may emphasize once more is a trial period.

All of these suggestions might or might not be considered for future major and other reward changes. But I would implore people to be courteous with their suggestions as to not insult their fellow players. Though this is a general observation for the entire forum, not limited to this thread in particular.

Slavery as it currently is will not be changing anytime soon however. Or that if it does it will involve the mechanics behind it rather than the availability.

Still not actually reading this thread but:
Looking at the remove elves and halfling post (solid move) it seems like the biggest issue is people grabbing races for the mechanical benefit, so this might be radical, sunglasses engaged, but why not just normalize the races? Everybody gets a feat and a skill point per level, you as a player can choose to add +2 to a stat and -2 to a stat during creation, before gifts.

Let some races keep some of their cosmetic abilities, let humans take an extra gift (minor maybe?), so there's still a little 'difference,' but otherwise make races cosmetic. That way, people who want to play, say, a kobold, don't feel like they instead need to make a human because the game wants 10 feats for any given build and gives you 7.

Drowboy wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:23 am why not just normalize the races?

Because there will be no point in playing anymore as your choice of the race will no longer matter.

Action comes with consequences, and selection of the race carries mechanical benefits and disadvantages.
When every race is the same, then they're reduced to a different skin, and rather than immersive world, you have a chat client with 3d avatar. That would be time to walk away from the server.

*Kenku

Void wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:38 am

Chosen Son wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:29 am Having to spend a week or so circle grinding

It takes a week only if you play 24/7 and has no other responsibilities.

For normal reward? Just with writs and xp from killing creeps while doing them you will hit atleast 16 (25% chance for normal) in like 3 days....
If you take - ECL and even grind on top of writs, you can get like 3 characters for lvl 16 sac in week..while playing around 3 hours a day +-

Not to mention... 100% chance for normal if you sac char over lvl 30...

And at this point nearly everyone have atleast one or more normal rewards....

What that change actualy have done was only to not allow new players to have acces to something that could/should be harder roleplayed properly...And to force people to actualy think about their character outcast backstory...not just go to UD human becouse its best for your build...

I think making outcast a reward was long overdue, and kudos to whoever pulled the trigger on that one.

Agreed. I understand the fear that it will depopulate the UD but I hope that won’t be the case. I had thought for years that the sheer amount of humans running around the UD compared to actual UD races was pretty jarring, especially considering some of them really didn’t seem like the type to be down there. I like the change honestly.

When I ever brought up UD outcasts, I suggested only a minor reward. It make no sense to flood UD with army of slaves who don't RP as slaves a minor gift is guranteed on a lvl 16 roll

starting as a slave should require a reward, imo, unless you have, say, a 30RPR. maybe the same could go for outcasts: take an award OR have 30RPR.

edit: i still want playable myconids

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:01 pm When I ever brought up UD outcasts, I suggested only a minor reward. It make no sense to flood UD with army of slaves who don't RP as slaves a minor gift is guranteed on a lvl 16 roll

Wasn't there a command to yoink slave towards its master? Could've sworn there was something like that. I don't think an army of slave woudl work out, as it will be met with army of slaveowners...

Void wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:42 am

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:01 pm When I ever brought up UD outcasts, I suggested only a minor reward. It make no sense to flood UD with army of slaves who don't RP as slaves a minor gift is guranteed on a lvl 16 roll

Wasn't there a command to yoink slave towards its master? Could've sworn there was something like that. I don't think an army of slave woudl work out, as it will be met with army of slaveowners...

you can conjure slaves (anyone's, not just yours) via npcs on each server

Kuma wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:53 am

Void wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:42 am

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:01 pm When I ever brought up UD outcasts, I suggested only a minor reward. It make no sense to flood UD with army of slaves who don't RP as slaves a minor gift is guranteed on a lvl 16 roll

Wasn't there a command to yoink slave towards its master? Could've sworn there was something like that. I don't think an army of slave woudl work out, as it will be met with army of slaveowners...

you can conjure slaves (anyone's, not just yours) via npcs on each server

New fun past time for slave owners. Cross-location slave yoink ping-pong.
"I say, YOINK!. No, I say, YOINK!". Cue infinite stream of loading screens.

Void wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:42 am

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:01 pm When I ever brought up UD outcasts, I suggested only a minor reward. It make no sense to flood UD with army of slaves who don't RP as slaves a minor gift is guranteed on a lvl 16 roll

Wasn't there a command to yoink slave towards its master? Could've sworn there was something like that. I don't think an army of slave woudl work out, as it will be met with army of slaveowners...

you can summon them via slavemaster, any slave, but then they just get really POed at you like an outsider summoned by PnP planar binding spell if you don't have good cause to bother them (especially if you are not their designated owner and they are more powerfull).

That's why i think a minor reward for outcast is balanced as the difference between rolling a 16 level character and bending your RP to being a slave can be a choice more up to the player if they really want to be a human starting/living in Adunour.

Void wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:25 amNew fun past time for slave owners. Cross-location slave yoink ping-pong.
"I say, YOINK!. No, I say, YOINK!". Cue infinite stream of loading screens.

my avatar has never been more relevant

shadowvar

Kuma wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:20 am my avatar has never been more relevant

I did not realize, until TODAY, what your avatar was.

My funeral will be held shortly.

Baron Saturday wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:19 amI did not realize, until TODAY, what your avatar was.

My funeral will be held shortly.

i'm so happy

Baron Saturday wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:19 am

Kuma wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:20 am my avatar has never been more relevant

I did not realize, until TODAY, what your avatar was.

My funeral will be held shortly.

I had always percieved it as a blue lightsaber..