Arelith

I get that he is CN in 3rd, despite being TN in 5th. I get that many people think that 5th ed sucks and some even think there should be no god of war that covers TN. I disagree, both because new players who play D&D are going to make the same mistake I did on my character (granted I should have known better ) and because I definitely think a person who is built for war but holds no loyalty to a cause, faith or nation save their own pocket is definitely TN assuming they are not an outright scoundrel.

Let's hear why I'm wrong.

Tempus is CN in 3 and 3.5 and one of his domains is Chaos.
We're playing in 3 and 3.5 so Tempus should be CN and have Chaos as a domain.
Whatever happened in the lore to change his domains and alignment haven't happened yet in Arelith.

Honestly he always felt more TN than CN to me, a god of war with an emphasis on victory for the organized and tactically superior is not chaotic, frankly it is verging on lawful. This feels even more jarring when Garagos, the god of the mindless charge and maximum body count shares the same alignment. There is nothing Chaotic about his dogma or personality.
Frankly, the fact his dogma demands ensuring the smallest body count and the avoidance of involving innocents/noncombatants, scorched earth tactics or ambushing inferior forces makes CE an excessively bad fit.

Its not like it matters on Arelith that he has Chaos domain, what with that not being an option.


All that said, changing a deities alignment from that which is already established is a BIG decision and should be avoided if possible to avoid confusion for newer players.

Following 3.5 whenever possible. Sources state alignments. Won't be changed. Work around it.

Planning a battle is not lawful, it's just not stupid. Chaotic does not = stupid/reckless/unprepared.
The chaotic stupid alignment stereotype won't fit Tempus, but the Chaotic Neutral alignment does fit him pretty well.
War is chaotic. I see no justification for him being non-Chaotic without the portfolio changes that come in later editions. At this point in time he is simply how he is.

Lloth and her faithful are Chaotic Evil, as are demons, but both are famous (or infamous) for their complicated, ingenious planning and deceptions.

Besides, war is chaos.
And simply, he holds the portfolio of chaos at this point in Forgotten Realms history, and so he has powers of chaos and is able to grant powers of chaos to his priests too. Changing the alignment of a deity to something from another edition would be very confusing for existing and joining players, seeing as this is not 5th edition.

Not knocking 5th edition. I would amputate a limb to get a NWN3 released in 5th edition!

So, if war is chaos, does that mean The Red Knight should be CN as well? I mean, from the standpoint of it all making sense, you have the discipline of the red knight on one side, the raging battle lust of gargos on the other, and Tempus in the middle. At least that's how it seems to me it should be.

And just in case this needs to be said, I am saying this stuff because I believe it not because it directly effects my character. A DM was nice enough to give me an alignment shift to CN since my character was so new anyways, so I am as xerah said "working around it". Ultimately whether or not this gets changed in any meaningful way won't effect much, save for people like me who get twitchy when things don't make sense. And I get that that my twitchiness may not be much of a priority for anyone else

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:48 pm So, if war is chaos, does that mean The Red Knight should be CN as well? I mean, from the standpoint of it all making sense, you have the discipline of the red knight on one side, the raging battle lust of gargos on the other, and Tempus in the middle. At least that's how it seems to me it should be.

And just in case this needs to be said, I am saying this stuff because I believe it not because it directly effects my character. A DM was nice enough to give me an alignment shift to CN since my character was so new anyways, so I am as xerah said "working around it". Ultimately whether or not this gets changed in any meaningful way won't effect much, save for people like me who get twitchy when things don't make sense. And I get that that my twitchiness may not be much of a priority for anyone else

No, the Red Knight does not have chaos as one of their domains of power

War can be for chaotic reasons or orderly (lawful) ones. That's not really the part that makes Tempus chaotic.

The part that makes Tempus Chaotic is that it is not uncommon for his warpriests and worshippers to be in the same war on opposite sides- he has no unifying drive for his warring, he simply cares that (honorable) war happens, and he encourages his faithful to fight for whichever cause they feel swayed by (which can frequently be coin), which winds up in faithful of Tempus killing each other in wars and considering it a "good death."

If that's not Chaotic, I don't know what is. A chaotic neutral character can have their own moral compass and idealogy, they're just unlikely to respond well to others pushing their morality and idealogy onto them.

Tempus is a NCO, the Red Knight is the Chief of General Staff. It makes sense that Tempus deals with the chaotic side of warfare (fog of war, tactical objectives, etc), while the Red Knight deals with the methodical one (careful planning, chain of command, strategic objectives, etc). It might not be a perfect correspondence but it does make sense.

Maybe I made a mistake in the way I phrased my OP. I am not arguing that Tempus should be neutral as much as I am arguing that a TN devout follower of his could exist. With the way the arc works now its CG, CN, and CE, which means that you have to be one of those three to be a cleric or CoT. Best way to break down my views on this is this:

Do I think tempus makes more sense as a TN god? Yes, he is probably more TN then some of the gods that actually are TN in 3rd ed because to use one of your examples worshipers can be fighting on opposite sides of the spectrum. While I get how that could be viewed as chaotic, it also doesn't get any more neutral then that.

Do I think that what is 3rd edition lore should be changed because I think it should be? Nope, I'm an ego maniac but even that's a bit much for me. I do think his worshipers should be more along the lines of CN, TN, CE instead of what they are though. I would be hard pressed to come up with a concept for a CG tempan anyways.

Is part of the reason I think this way because I also think that CN is the dumbest alignment ever? Guilty! But that's a me problem.

Nooo an alignment discussion lol.

I solved this in the discord before, great solution. Patron deity a neutral one like Mielikki and then worship Tempos. Win win.

Solution presented.

Aeralad wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:29 am Nooo an alignment discussion lol.

I solved this in the discord before, great solution. Patron deity a neutral one like Mielikki and then worship Tempos. Win win.

Solution presented.

If you set one deity for mechanical reasons, and then actually RP another one being your patron, that's breach of rules. You're supposed to act out your character''s stats.

You CAN, however, set one god as your patron and then attune to tempus. But that's not the same thing as having Tempus as your patron.