Arelith

As the arcane archery is just a learned skill and in later DnD editions it is open to other races for this reason, we should do the same in Arelith to enable more concepts. Elves will still have a strong natural advantage due to their dexterity bonuses and racial weapon proficiency.

Yes I agree. There's more powerful builds out there than an archer anyways.

DangerDolphin wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:49 pm As the arcane archery is just a learned skill and in later DnD editions it is open to other races for this reason, we should do the same in Arelith to enable more concepts. Elves will still have a strong natural advantage due to their dexterity bonuses and racial weapon proficiency.

Not sure how their racial proficiency helps at all and humans stull make better cookie cutter rogues without dex bonus, not sure how that will translate to arcane archers. Also kind of insults half elves.

Dwarven defender is now simply "earthkin defender". So earthkin, not humans and so on.

Arcane archer is an elven class, so elven, drow, half-elven.

It is right where it should be!

Edit: This is my opinion at least, though I know others disagree. Which is all good!

Crossbow AA-ery for drow maybe, if possible.

DangerDolphin wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:49 pm As the arcane archery is just a learned skill and in later DnD editions it is open to other races for this reason, we should do the same in Arelith to enable more concepts. Elves will still have a strong natural advantage due to their dexterity bonuses and racial weapon proficiency.

I'd rather have this remain elf-only. Racially locked classes add more flavor to the setting.

My vantage point is probably super niche, but as someone who doesn't enjoy playing elves cos don't know how, but who enjoys the gameplay and the thematic of the class, I'd very much like the change!

Maybe follow a similar line of reasoning as with the Earthkin Defender update? I have no idea what kind of IC coalitions there are on Arelith but am all for pushing a narrative theme through class mechanics. But just as an imaginary example of what I mean: Elves and Gnome descended from some strain of fey ancestor ape, are magically inclined, and buddy up for skinny dips and such, so maybe gnomes are able to learn their secrets and elves willing to teach them?

Is this not what the Ranger - Archer Path is for?

CookieMonster wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:37 pm Is this not what the Ranger - Archer Path is for?

Yes and no. The real benefit of Arcane Archer vs Ranger is the +5 or better damage penetration after just 3 levels.

I find it so extremely odd how many people are against this.

I opened this up to everyone on another PW (as well as allowed xbow and sling options) and all the "elf-only players" came out like it was some crime against humanity to do this. It was so weird.

Design wise, heavy restrictions with races like that are not ideal in a place that has limited class options.

Opening up AA would be great and for the same reasons, opening up the harper classes.

CookieMonster wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:37 pm Is this not what the Ranger - Archer Path is for?

Not to pick a fight, just an honest question, do you think that:

Arcane Archer - Elf = Archer?

In terms of gameplay, Archer and Arcane Archer share ranged attacks and Dex priority. In terms of thematics, they share that as well. Otherwise they're different classes, in my humbledore. Arcane Archers are magical bowpeople.

At least opening it to more ranged weapons would be nice, so could see more races using more thematic weapons suited for them over longbow. See no reason why can't open it up for all races as doesn't change the RP of Arcane Archery for Elves as they can still have unique ways to "learn/have it" that others don't have available to them.

Void wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:12 pm
I'd rather have this remain elf-only. Racially locked classes add more flavor to the setting.

well, uh... that's just like your opinion man.

Xerah wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:48 pm I find it so extremely odd how many people are against this.

I opened this up to everyone on another PW (as well as allowed xbow and sling options) and all the "elf-only players" came out like it was some crime against humanity to do this. It was so weird.

Design wise, heavy restrictions with races like that are not ideal in a place that has limited class options.

Same thing happened when Ranger got added to the AA pre-reqs. Threads and horrified posts about how it was ARCANE archer and how would a ranger learn how to do it ANYWAY it's BREAKING my IMMERSION and then it simmered down within like two months.

Good idea.

Not a fan, but hey- If elves can be paladins, why not?

In the same vein, how about opening up earthkin defender to all races?

Xerah wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:48 pm I find it so extremely odd how many people are against this.

I opened this up to everyone on another PW (as well as allowed xbow and sling options) and all the "elf-only players" came out like it was some crime against humanity to do this. It was so weird.

Design wise, heavy restrictions with races like that are not ideal in a place that has limited class options.

That's because you eliminated one of the things that made their race distinct from everybody else. Additionally, arcane archers had certain image associated with them, and that one got destroyed as well. Of COURSE they would be upset.

When all classes are open to all races, it kills the flavor of the setting, and makes all character the same, with slight difference in statblock and skin.

There should be things that are alignment and race locked. The more things, the better. They allow to express player's choice.

Just open it up to fey; pixies and firbolgs.

Unless it changed since his answer, this was Irongron's opinion on this some time ago: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=21566&p=176570

Void wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:16 pm

Xerah wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:48 pm I find it so extremely odd how many people are against this.

I opened this up to everyone on another PW (as well as allowed xbow and sling options) and all the "elf-only players" came out like it was some crime against humanity to do this. It was so weird.

Design wise, heavy restrictions with races like that are not ideal in a place that has limited class options.

That's because you eliminated one of the things that made their race distinct from everybody else. Additionally, arcane archers had certain image associated with them, and that one got destroyed as well. Of COURSE they would be upset.

When all classes are open to all races, it kills the flavor of the setting, and makes all character the same, with slight difference in statblock and skin.

There should be things that are alignment and race locked. The more things, the better. They allow to express player's choice.

Your role play makes them unique not your class build.

I can see how access to such ab boost should be reserved for 'elven archery' on the thematic level but is it really pushed to that direction in the class design otherwise? Especially in arelith where the different arrow abilities are pretty trash and are not why you pick that class. I dont see it right now serving as some elven paragon of arcane secrets or whatever so I also dont see a reason to keep it locked. If the class had more arcane related boons (I dont know, CL for sorc/wiz/bard count for example) then maybe the class' identity will reinforce the racial limitation. Right now its just a big ab/damage boost with decent skill selection.

I think unless all of the races resemble one another mechanically you can't really do anything like this drastically.

Elves and humans are not mechanically similar. An AA who is a human is quite literally just a better half-elf.

The other thing is these classes are usually cultural secrets and ancient wonders that humans usually don't have in forgotten realms because their civilizations are younger or destroy themselves (which is their weakness).

Elves and dwarves have culture, history, and secrets handed to them by their gods which usually take the form of prestige classes in 3.X.

With dwarven defender becoming "earthkin defender" it actually isn't too bad either because both halflings and gnomes get a couple of prestige classes that are the same concept as the defender, halflings and gnomes have "Breach gnomes" who clog up tunnels in hill burrows and caverns to hold off subterranean enemies.

Elves are, culturally, loathe to share their secrets with those who are not elvish. Arcane Archers, Bladesingers (not the same as your average spellsword), Spellsingers, Keepers, and the like are all special classes that are meant to represent millennia of a cultured discipline.

(and then combined with this, usually, this is how settings make up for how humans are very versatile and flexible - while other races are pretty much linear to a few paths. Dwarves are going to be fighty smashies, elves are going to be shooty magickers and so forth due to their mechanical direction which is supposed to represent their cultural representation too)

does it make a fair and balanced game? not really.

does it make it heresy to adapt things? Not inherently, but, without mechanical address all it does it make humans more attractive and the reasons for playing these other races less welcome.

it's why i suggested fey because fey creatures are friends of elves.

Could maybe do gnomes and fey.

Gnomes and elves are fast friends and forest gnomes ADORE elves of all kinds, especially wild and wood elves where the Arcane Archer is a common class.

Opens it up and gives a little breadth to the class (and to non-humans).

Xerah wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:27 pm Your role play makes them unique not your class build.

Character's culture, race and biography makes up a huge portion of what your character is. They're the foundation of your character

Taking those things away makes people upset, as it happened in the scenario you described. Basically, it was expected outcome, and it would be VERY surprising if nobody spoke against such change.

Class choices reflect decisions your character has made in life, and matter as well. They're also important.
Mechanics are your sheet, and arelith has "play your sheet" rule.

Arcane archer is a very elven thing, as is arcane archer with a bow and not something else. A magical long-living race, with supreme archery skills, which is probably aiming a magic arrow at someone right now.

Open it up to everybody, and you'll get magical goblin crossbowman which does the same thing. Of course elf players won't like it one bit.