Arelith

So basically Arelith has the following planetouched templates.

Genasi of 4 varieties.

Tieflings.

Aasimar.

What do I think they needed updated:

I. Halflings and gnomes can't have the templates. This should be changed - its weird they were left out when they decided to open them up. Halflings actually even have a supported tiefling subrace, Whisperlings. Earth genasi gnomes and halflings seem like they'd be pretty common.

II. Unalignment restrict tieflings and aasimar. They have free will in PnP - a tiefling paladin is just as likely as an aasimar blackguard. They are also now 5%s so its weird that planetouched, not full blooded fiends, can't be tailored to whoever's story.


That is all.

Solid suggestions!

cowboy wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:07 am They have free will in PnP - a tiefling paladin is just as likely as an aasimar blackguard.

When alignments are open what usually happens is a LOT of good aligned tieflings and a LOT of evil aligned aasimars.
So you can think of it being similar to "no drizzits" rule.

Might make sense to gate it beyond dm approval, though.

cowboy wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:07 am a tiefling paladin is just as likely as an aasimar blackguard.

Both are very unlikely still?

You'd need to have 10 paladin aasimars for every 1 paladin tiefling. We dont have that many planetouched in general so snowflaking it even more is just ridiculous. Lol.

...what part of 5% do you guys not comprehend?

AstralUniverse wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:56 am

cowboy wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:07 am a tiefling paladin is just as likely as an aasimar blackguard.

Both are very unlikely still?

You'd need to have 10 paladin aasimars for every 1 paladin tiefling. We dont have that many planetouched in general so snowflaking it even more is just ridiculous. Lol.

More like 90 paladin aasimars per one paladin tiefling. Aasimars even have paladin as their favored class in PnP.

Basically, the limitations in place are (most likely) to maintain lore appropriate alignment distirbution, and both races are likely to experience strong push towards their "preferred" alignment.

cowboy wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:59 am ...what part of 5% do you guys not comprehend?

I think I understand that perfectly, but I don't believe that 5% alone can warrant any alignment for a tiefling.

You can try using two awards on your tiefling. Major to get access, and another one to switch alignment. See if DMs will be onboard with the idea.

cowboy wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:59 am ...what part of 5% do you guys not comprehend?

*gestures vaguely*

i like both of these ideas. canonically, tiefers and aasimar are generally human, with each individual race having its own variant of them, but these can be easily rolled into what we already have. the idea that small races wouldn't also be victim to the lure of an erinyes and their descendants being twisted, or the beneficence of a celestial, is a bit bizarre.

You can try using two awards on your tiefling. Major to get access, and another one to switch alignment.

i dont want to reply to a fellow players comment with just "lmao" without explanation but i'm struggling, man, i really am

cowboy wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:59 am ...what part of 5% do you guys not comprehend?

I comprehend just fine. But if normal goody aasimars are already 5%, I dont see how evil aasimar BGs are also same odds. Nope.

Kuma wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:06 am i dont want to reply to a fellow players comment with just "lmao" without explanation but i'm struggling, man, i really am

Well, maybe we should introduce "supreme award" or something.

It is when you roll, get major and get an option to roll ANOTHER d20, and if you get 5% on that one too....

Tiefling paladins and good-aligned tieflings in general aren't even that unlikely. They've a minuscule amount of fiendish blood and the dominance of evil tieflings in lore is more due to how they are treated by normal people than anything else.

Either way a good aligned tiefling is more likely than a good aligned drow or goblin which only takes a normal reward.

Imperatrix wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:10 am Either way a good aligned tiefling is more likely than a good aligned drow or goblin which only takes a normal reward.

But a normal evil drow takes NO award. Lol. What is this logic.

I think AstralUniverse meant that out of 95 characters, 5 are tieflings; out of 2090 characters, 110 are tieflings; out of 110 tieflings, 10 are paladins. Seeing there are now 14 base classes and if the odds amongst them were even, they would have a higher probability of being a paladin than any other class. Of course she means that Paladin tieflings should be notably more rare than non-paladin tieflings, and that they therefore should not be possible.

I'd personally like to see evil aasimars and good tieflings, fighting the stereotypes and such, nature v. nurture, Jekyll and Hyde.

Opustus wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:12 am I think AstralUniverse meant that out of 95 characters, 5 are tieflings; out of 2090 characters, 110 are tieflings; out of 110 tieflings, 10 are paladins.

Yes, that's what I meant. But not literally. If Tieflings were greater award and goody tieflings were major? fine.

if tieflings are major and goody tieflings are major + DM application? Also fine.

Good and EVIl tieflings/aasimars at 5%? Not fine.

Imperatrix wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:10 am Tiefling paladins and good-aligned tieflings in general aren't even that unlikely. They've a minuscule amount of fiendish blood and the dominance of evil tieflings in lore is more due to how they are treated by normal people than anything else.

Either way a good aligned tiefling is more likely than a good aligned drow or goblin which only takes a normal reward.

Drow requires no award by default and is "almost always evil" rrace.

Good is an uncommon alignment for a tiefling, and tiefling requires maximum ward. So thee's no way to "bump the price" of the character to accomodate for unusual alignment.

Opustus wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:12 am I think AstralUniverse meant that out of 95 characters, 5 are tieflings; out of 2090 characters, 110 are tieflings; out of 110 tieflings, 10 are paladins. Seeing there are now 14 base classes and if the odds amongst them were even, they would have a higher probability of being a paladin than any other class. Of course she means that Paladin tieflings should be notably more rare than non-paladin tieflings, and that they therefore should not be possible.

I'd personally like to see evil aasimars and good tieflings, fighting the stereotypes and such, nature v. nurture, Jekyll and Hyde.

The distribution isn't even, though. They gravitate towards evil - because of fiendish blood and treatment they receive. So it is more along the lines of "out of thousand people, 1 is a tiefling, and out of a thousand tieflings, one is a paladin"

AstralUniverse wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:18 am

Opustus wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:12 am I think AstralUniverse meant that out of 95 characters, 5 are tieflings; out of 2090 characters, 110 are tieflings; out of 110 tieflings, 10 are paladins.

Yes, that's what I meant. But not literally. If Tieflings were greater award and goody tieflings were major? fine.

if tieflings are major and goody tieflings are major + DM application? Also fine.

Good and EVIl tieflings/aasimars at 5%? Not fine.

I agree completely.

AstralUniverse wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:11 am

Imperatrix wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:10 am Either way a good aligned tiefling is more likely than a good aligned drow or goblin which only takes a normal reward.

But a normal evil drow takes NO award. Lol. What is this logic.

The logic is that I'm spending major reward on something with no canonical reason as to why I can't play whatever alignment I want. Tieflings aren't inherently evil. They don't generally come from inherently evil cultures.

Imperatrix wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:18 am

AstralUniverse wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:11 am

Imperatrix wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:10 am Either way a good aligned tiefling is more likely than a good aligned drow or goblin which only takes a normal reward.

But a normal evil drow takes NO award. Lol. What is this logic.

The logic is that I'm spending major reward on something with no canonical reason as to why I can't play whatever alignment I want. Tieflings aren't inherently evil. They don't generally come from inherently evil cultures. I'm making a sound argument. You could try it some time.

There's a big thread in the Slanty of "What major awards would you like to see?" or however it's called. That thread is there because you can no longer send special 5% applications for things like paladin tieflings.

I suggest you post what you'd like to see in that thread and maybe 6 months from now goody tieflings will be 'open' for a while.

EDIT: And tieflings are like... part demons/devils. I really doubt the frequency of good ones as the same as none-good ones.

AstralUniverse wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:18 am

Opustus wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:12 am I think AstralUniverse meant that out of 95 characters, 5 are tieflings; out of 2090 characters, 110 are tieflings; out of 110 tieflings, 10 are paladins.

Yes, that's what I meant. But not literally. If Tieflings were greater award and goody tieflings were major? fine.

if tieflings are major and goody tieflings are major + DM application? Also fine.

Good and EVIl tieflings/aasimars at 5%? Not fine.

Gotcha, that's a reasonable opinion based on the rarity principle for locking races, imo! I don't like the principle myself, although it's the enforced one, and always am in favour of greater player expression and freedom, so I'm biased to agree with OP.

Imperatrix wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:18 am

AstralUniverse wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:11 am

Imperatrix wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:10 am Either way a good aligned tiefling is more likely than a good aligned drow or goblin which only takes a normal reward.

But a normal evil drow takes NO award. Lol. What is this logic.

The logic is that I'm spending major reward on something with no canonical reason as to why I can't play whatever alignment I want. Tieflings aren't inherently evil. They don't generally come from inherently evil cultures. I'm making a sound argument. You could try it some time.

Tieflings don't have a culture. However, a lot of them are result of fiends messing with mortal bloodlines (and creating pawns in the long term) and plenty come from Thay, which is non-good. They're also listed as "usually evil" in PnP sources.

They could have a decent life in Al-Quadim, but I'm not sure if it exists in Arelith universe.

In the end, however, having fiendish blood matters, in more than one way.

drow paladins are more unlikely than tiefling paladins yet the whole of the server can do this with a normal award and no application.

its a 5%, and tieflings are not bound to evil, and aasimar are not bound to good. You are making stuff up in your head if you think otherwise.

Here are some excerpts from the Forgotten Realms Campaign setting. None of them really mention alignment.










This is quite literally the whole sumof canon, Faerun specific lore on these races. None of it mentions alignment. Tieflings are like half-orcs and often are abused or forced into dark lifestyles but they have every opportunity to be as good as anyone else.

Arelith has several problems with people being blue skinned harems of anime monster girls but I think thats an individual issue.

Let me be a self-loathing Helmite tiefling Paladin! Let me wear a tonsure and hate myself while being entirely righteous!

cowboy wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:37 am drow paladins are more unlikely than tiefling paladins yet the whole of the server can do this with a normal award and no application.

Because there are more drow than tieflings. Following logic used by drow, to have a good aligned tiefling, you'd need a reward two levels higher than major award. Such reward does not exist.

cowboy wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:37 am Here are some excerpts from the Forgotten Realms Campaign setting. None of them really mention alignment.

"Not all tieflings are evil or untrustworthy, but enough are that the prejudice tends to cling"

The rest is defined in Monster Manual I, page 209. Where Aasimar is descriebd as "usually good", and tiefling as "usually evil".

Beyond that you'll need to go into Planar Handbook, page 15, which says:

Carrying the taint of evil in their forms - and perhaps their very souls - tieflings are often persecuted and feared throughout the planes. The distant descendants of humans and evil outsiders, tieflings are regarded as twisted, devious and untrustworthy. More often than not, this opinion is accurate.

And finally, there's "Races of Faerun", which on page 125 says this:

Carrying the taint of evil in their very souls, tieflings are persecuted and feared in most parts of Faerûn. Those with gross physical alterations are often killed at birth, and even those with less noticeable physical traits are sometimes killed by their own horrified parents. Occasionally a tiefling is born to someone indifferent to its appearance, determined to redeem it, willing to exploit it, or evil enough not to care about its nature, and these tieflings are most likely to survive to adulthood. Most tieflings are evil, but a few have managed to overcome their bloodline’s influence to make their own choices about good and evil.

Tieflings are the distant descendants of a human and some evil outsider, such as a demon (usually a marilith or succubus), devil (usually an erinyes, gelugon, or pit fiend), night hag, rakshasa, or even a servant of an evil deity (some of these creatures must use magic to assume a form that is compatible with a human mate, of course). Fiend-touched and similarly tainted mixes of elves (notably the fey’ri), orcs (such as the tanarukk), and other races are known, but those are distinct lines and are not true tieflings.

This is Forgotten Realm specific.
----------
Regarding Aasimar, in Races of Faerun (page 112):

The aasimar bear the legacy of a celestial being or even a deity in their ancestry, and have incredible potential to do good in the world. At the same time, their heritage marks them as different and often leads to persecution, ridicule, or exile from superstitious or backward communities. It is not unknown for an aasimar to give in to bitterness in the face of adversity and turn to evil.

Aasimar are the descendants of humans and some good outsider, such as a true celestial, a celestial creature, couatl, lillend, or even a servant or avatar of a good deity. (Some of these creatures must use magic to assume a form that is compatible with a human mate, of course.) While elves, dwarves, gnomes, and halflings with good outsider ancestry are reputed to exist, those crossbreeds are not true aasimar.

This also covers alternative races.

and in both...

void...

...they say...

not all...

...are evil...

but a few have managed to overcome their bloodline’s influence to make their own choices about good and evil.

AstralUniverse wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:08 am

cowboy wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:59 am ...what part of 5% do you guys not comprehend?

I comprehend just fine. But if normal goody aasimars are already 5%, I dont see how evil aasimar BGs are also same odds. Nope.

I kind of see your point here, but really, good-aligned tieflings and evil-aligned aasimar will be so rare (5%s are rare, and 5%s spent on an evil-aligned aasimar or a good-aligned tiefling will be even rarer) that DMs can (and should) deal with extremely silly characters on a case-by-case basis. As OP said:

cowboy wrote:Arelith has several problems with people being blue skinned harems of anime monster girls but I think thats an individual issue.

These kind of snowflakes aren't so much a result of "extreme" races (or race/alignment combinations) being available as they are a result of players just wanting to roleplay ridiculous characters (see winged paladins of the radiant heart wearing the beast belt and marrying necromancers). These players will find a way, anyhow. Deal with those individually, and keep the fun for players who know what they're doing and bring actually interesting, quality RP.`

Besides, last time I saw a good-aligned (or maybe it was neutral) tiefling, characters actually started treating it as "an exception" really quickly and, in fact, began calling my character out for not trusting it. I would absolutely love to see a good-aligned tiefling trying to be accepted by a society/community but being shunned and neglected entirely. Sadly, the Arelith playerbase tends to lean towards "aww look at that cute, kind female tiefling :)" instead.

cowboy wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:51 am and in both...

void...

...they say...

not all...

...are evil...

but a few have managed to overcome their bloodline’s influence to make their own choices about good and evil.

You're focusing on the outcome you wish to see, while dismissing odds of it happening.

While FEW are "non-evil", MOST are evil. By making an exception from the rule in already rare race, you'll skew expected representation of alignments in the race, because other people will do the same thing as you did.

And that's why they're restricted to non-good alignments, most likely.

The way I see it, for good aligned tiefling, you should seek permission of DM team.

cool;

anyway enough about the maths debate where the lore is very clearly about things.

It's weird on the server that

gnomes and halflings can't have these templates.

and that alignment restrictions exist for two of those templates we can consider that thoughtfully debated.

cowboy wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:00 am cool;

anyway enough about the maths debate where the lore is very clearly about things.

It's weird on the server that

gnomes and halflings can't have these templates.

and that alignment restrictions exist for two of those templates we can consider that thoughtfully debated.

Well, those are not supposed to be a template, but a race. I don't really recall any planetouched version of halflings/gnomes. Elves have fey'ri. Orcs have tanarukks. There might also be a matter of model parts not being available.

Vampire, for comparison, is a proper template.