Arelith

I'd like to preface this by ensuring the developer that they are a great person, whomever they are.

This however is a prime example of an objectively bad change.

Were mages considered overpowered? Why?

This is an incredible nerf to a rather mediocre class, and periphery mediocre classes (spellsword, outside of div ss) - as well as a big buff to other things.

To break down some of the problems:

It's now possible to heal through a mage burst extremely easily.
A mage is unlikely to threaten anyone unless they're ungeared, poorly built and make big mistakes.
Periphery SS which has shored mediocre AB with timestop use is in trouble.
The div meta strengthens, div bards espescially, mage-nuking is the biggest danger to them.
Shotgun strengthens vs mages.

As I'm sure there's been knowledgeable oversight, can we be privy to the math and reasoning behind these changes? I can't work it out.

This was actually a good change and fixes a spell that in a Roleplay Server, is very unbalanced and could be used to un-comparably effect the outcome of PVP.

TimeStop and its effects, while casting with other delayed action spells was way too powerful, and resulted in unfair combat scenarios that essentially boiled combat with wizards down to "Who got the first TimeStop off."

Removing any damage or effects being done effectively makes it a single person retreat mechanisim, or what it's intended to be. A way to make distance or stop a fight long enough for a single action.

I mean think about it. You are LITERALLY STOPPING TIME, that kind of power is WAAAY powerful and the fact that you could stop time, and then drop cloudkills, AOEs with delayed effect and trap your enemies under the blast zone?

No... Not a bad change. Thank you Irongron for helping remove something that made alot of pain and hassle for everyone and making things a bit more of an even playing field. This is the kind of balance that I do advocate for.

If you're reading this, you are valid and loved.

Now that the Big Scary One's been nerfed, would it be possible to open UMD back up to scroll usage? Keep lore doing what lore does, but let UMD use scrolls at a higher-than-before-but-lower-than-lore rate, to open up more build diversity/skill uses.

Drogo Gyslain wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:05 pm This was actually a good change and fixes a spell that in a Roleplay Server, is very unbalanced and could be used to un-comparably effect the outcome of PVP.

TimeStop and its effects, while casting with other delayed action spells was way too powerful, and resulted in unfair combat scenarios that essentially boiled combat with wizards down to "Who got the first TimeStop off."

Timestop as a first action is something you want to avoid completely as a mage.

If someone opened with timestop, that is fantastic news for anyone they're fighting.

Timestop is your finisher and, at a stretch if you're really pressured, an escape tool.

I more or less agree with the original post, in regards that mages are not that great, it is easier now more than ever to have good saves, even without a divine dip (that only makes it easier).

However, if the whole viability of mages rests on a single level 9 spell, then this shows that not only the spell was likely too strong but also that the real issue is elsewhere, and that is another topic. This change makes the spell behave as it should per pnp standard, which is what it should have been from the beginning and I think that is good.

Will this make mages less strong for now? Yes. But they are not without other tools still. I think in time other issue will be tackled to bring mages more in line with others (or others down to more in line with mages), but this is still a step in the right direction.

Drogo Gyslain wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:05 pm I mean think about it. You are LITERALLY STOPPING TIME, that kind of power is WAAAY powerful and the fact that you could stop time, and then drop cloudkills, AOEs with delayed effect and trap your enemies under the blast zone?

That is still possible with how the spell works. You can still cast persistent aoes but the effects will only begin when time resumes and not from the moment they land.

Drogo Gyslain wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:05 pm This was actually a good change and fixes a spell that in a Roleplay Server, is very unbalanced and could be used to un-comparably effect the outcome of PVP.

TimeStop and its effects, while casting with other delayed action spells was way too powerful, and resulted in unfair combat scenarios that essentially boiled combat with wizards down to "Who got the first TimeStop off."

Removing any damage or effects being done effectively makes it a single person retreat mechanisim, or what it's intended to be. A way to make distance or stop a fight long enough for a single action.

I mean think about it. You are LITERALLY STOPPING TIME, that kind of power is WAAAY powerful and the fact that you could stop time, and then drop cloudkills, AOEs with delayed effect and trap your enemies under the blast zone?

No... Not a bad change. Thank you Irongron for helping remove something that made alot of pain and hassle for everyone and making things a bit more of an even playing field. This is the kind of balance that I do advocate for.

Timestop is not stopping time, it is a super-haste, per the spell's definition in PnP.

I can still drop Incendiary Cloud, Cloudkill/Acid Fog, and Mindfog in Timestop, btw, centered on you, so as soon as it's done, it works, and fall into whatever else I want while you're blind with no save. Feel free to waste your -pray.

Either way, using your Timestop as an opener is always the worst use of the spell.

This change is brilliant, no more instant death or being forced to call upon the gods to save your hide.

Kudos to the change its about time

Shadowy Reality wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:10 pm However, if the whole viability of mages rests on a single level 9 spell, then this shows that not only the spell was likely too strong but also that the real issue is elsewhere, and that is another topic.

This is flawed.

It would be terrible to lose IGMS or Mords as well. It's an integral part of their kit. Are they too strong?

If you remove monolith from pure druids, then it's not a viable option to be pure. Are monolith's then too strong?

The kit as a whole is important and damaging any part of that kit affects the use and viability of the rest of it.

Mages with time stop are far from the boogie men of the current meta. Nobody dies inside a Time Stop initiation unless they are completely unbuffed and unprepared, are just a really bad build, or forget that -pray exists.

There has been a trend toward nerfing spellcasters after the Lore change, and some of that has been good, but this is too far.

Attention should instead be turned toward archers, div dips, monk dips, etc. which currently dominate PvP. Mages (with the notable exception of spellswords) are honestly becoming the underdogs in comparison to some of the builds that have emerged in the post-Lore change meta.

I really dunno what to say, and I'm hesitant to offer any serious feedback because I believe this will be double-downed on anyway, so I'll just say I believe this was truly unnecessary and leave it at that.

If time stop is going to remain nerfed like this, maybe reduce its level to 7th level? So it's not so prohibitively hard to reach the lore to cast it and to give casters a reason to take it over other, now far more valuable 9th level choices.

Let's see how it plays out. Mages certainly don't come across as "the underdogs" to me at the moment, and I have a feeling they will manage quite well still.

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=25770&p

This one had an advance warning of more than 6 months.

Absolutely fine to dislike it, and to post about that, for sure.

However replying with snark/sarcasm based upon the previous thread concerning forum conduct is absolutely not okay, and a few of the above posts have crossed that line. I'll be asking our forum moderator to respond accordingly.

Nitro wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:33 pm If time stop is going to remain nerfed like this, maybe reduce its level to 7th level? So it's not so prohibitively hard to reach the lore to cast it and to give casters a reason to take it over other, now far more valuable 9th level choices.

Hey this is a pretty nifty idea actually

IIRC the original dev didn't go through with it because of feedback?

Still it would be lovely to see what went into this.

Sockss wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:46 pm IIRC the original dev didn't go through with it because of feedback?

No, this is not the case. It was originally slated for another Dev who went on an extended break due to poor health, but at no point was it ever abandoned.

My mistake! I thought it was Silvard that had it originally.

Hopefully we can get some good feedback on it.

I've already argued this change with devs in discord. Made many valid points that many mechanically savvy people agreed with. Was met with "well I don't like time stop."

Gsanc is next. Check it.

Zavandar wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:58 pm I've already argued this change with devs in discord. Made many valid points that many mechanically savvy people agreed with. Was met with "well I don't like time stop."

Gsanc is next. Check it.

Can't argue with that.

I'm sure the internal discussion was much more in depth though, we'll have to wait for the dev that did it to enlighten us I guess.

I don't think, for 9 seconds, eating every kind of debuff on yourself, getting a lot of damage by magic spells is something balanced. And -pray shouldn't be counter argument for this.

I am not even telling what 11APR Spellmonks with truestrike can do in that 9 seconds.

Yeah, I'm sure there were other concerns than just aesthetics/personal prefs. I trust our dev and admin team to use more objective metrics than whether or not they just 'like' how a spell or mechanic works. Would love to see the internal logic, honestly, as it would probably clear this all up.

A good change. Proud of the developers.

Zaphiel wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:06 pm I don't think, for 9 seconds, eating every kind of debuff on yourself, getting a lot of damage by magic spells is something balanced. And -pray shouldn't be counter argument for this.

Mages have been balanced around that.

Zaphiel wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:06 pm I am not even telling what 11APR Spellmonks with truestrike can do in that 9 seconds.

Under 50% hp you can get in some okay damage. Over 50% hp you're looking at next to no damage.

If you presume everything hits, with no DR, which it won't. You'll be pushing out 2d12+4 damage. 17 damage a hit. 187 damage a round.

That's 140.25 a round with conceal and everything otherwise hitting (which again, it won't).

It does depend on when/if they fail your fire imbue for AC decrease and if they fail blackstaff.

In reality it's still liable to be less than the above.

But for fun lets consider max blackstaff and every attack hitting, but with resistances and you're you're only looking at 209 damage. Or 156.75 after conceal.

(I've ommited crit calculations but you can multiply it up a little if you want I guess)

The problem with 'not even telling' is that you haven't calculated anything. It's meaningless.

It's the same weird thing where people will misrepresent an absolutely awful build which has glaring weaknesses (Here's to you SS/WM). Never believe anyone who tells you something is strong without providing any evidence for it and if they do, look at all the things they're assuming; fully-buffed with actionless windup and every attack hitting are the main offenders.

Below 50% health, we both agree how strong it is. Above 50% health, there are a lot of chance to fish 1 rolls and combine it with ice imbue to delete the chance of enemy to run away. For clearing the effect, enemy still must spend one round. So, on top of 140 damage you just got in timestop, you still going to get more damage in that one round. And, there is a poison literally makes you paralyzed for 10 rounds. That can easily fished for 1 rolls too in timestop.