Arelith

Posted: **Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:14 pm**

I wanted to wait before posting this, for the monk dust to settle a bit, but we keep thinking the class in all the wrong directions.

More and more the class is betraying its original spirit and being a dip 3 or all out lots of lvl with subpar cookies in comparison to a pure swashbuckler. Goodluck even considering str monk as your bonus ac is gone and you will never have epic dodge (again swash can be str or dex based and has better ab)

The main rework/nerf/buff I think would allow monks to not be so gimpy is to rework how UBAB works.

Rather than scaling 11/8/5/etc bab, you have straight up bonus attack.

Example:

Lvl 1 monk would provide 1 bonus full ab attack and lvl 10 could provide another full bab attack.
This means monk dips could still get 2 extra attacks with their extra and flurry blows activated (- 2 ab for that) but won't be as an a abusable ridiculous ubab progression. It gives monk incentive to go to lvl 10 and once they are that far, they might consider pushing to 20 for the other cookies. Especially if we kept ac every 5

Trading ac for pure monk defensive roll was a very bad move. It even further pigeon hole monk builds where your only naginata users will be dip 3 monk paladins who take advantage of the the damage types of the blades and everything else has to be unarmed epic monk dex or 3 dip monk dex dual wield. E dodge monk builds get really bit in the arse as they lose 4 bonus ac just so pure monks can have epic dodge while making pure monks lose a bunch of ac to get there. Were 20 monk 10 rogue really overpowering the server these days?

Monk is still a must have for janky builds that were not even inspired by playing a monk and the class does monk very poorly as its core elements get nerfed/stripped. Rework how monk bonus attacks work, and then balance the class from there, otherwise you might as well nuke the bloody thing from orbit.

*edit*

Case and point:

If i want the high aca and ab, i need only dip 3 monk and go heavy swash buckler instead.

Posted: **Mon Apr 27, 2020 5:16 pm**

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:14 pm I wanted to wait before posting this, for the monk dust to settle a bit, but we keep thinking the class in all the wrong directions.

More and more the class is betraying its original spirit and being a dip 3 or all out lots of lvl with subpar cookies in comparison to a pure swashbuckler. Goodluck even considering str monk as your bonus ac is gone and you will never have epic dodge (again swash can be str or dex based and has better ab)

The main rework/nerf/buff I think would allow monks to not be so gimpy is to rework how UBAB works.

Rather than scaling 11/8/5/etc bab, you have straight up bonus attack.

Example:

Lvl 1 monk would provide 1 bonus full ab attack and lvl 10 could provide another full bab attack.
This means monk dips could still get 2 extra attacks with their extra and flurry blows activated (- 2 ab for that) but won't be as an a abusable ridiculous ubab progression. It gives monk incentive to go to lvl 10 and once they are that far, they might consider pushing to 20 for the other cookies. Especially if we kept ac every 5

Trading ac for pure monk defensive roll was a very bad move. It even further pigeon hole monk builds where your only naginata users will be dip 3 monk paladins who take advantage of the the damage types of the blades and everything else has to be unarmed epic monk dex or 3 dip monk dex dual wield. E dodge monk builds get really bit in the arse as they lose 4 bonus ac just so pure monks can have epic dodge while making pure monks lose a bunch of ac to get there. Were 20 monk 10 rogue really overpowering the server these days?

Monk is still a must have for janky builds that were not even inspired by playing a monk and the class does monk very poorly as its core elements get nerfed/stripped. Rework how monk bonus attacks work, and then balance the class from there, otherwise you might as well nuke the bloody thing from orbit.

*edit*

Case and point:

If i want the high aca and ab, i need only dip 3 monk and go heavy swash buckler instead.

This sounds similar to kensai monks. Those received extra attack at level 1. However, the point of UBAB is having more attacks in the end and with higher chance to hit.

I think one interesting thing that could be done about the monk is forbidding multiclassing (meaning you pick different level than monk, no more monk levels for you) and locking most powerful abilities behind having majority monk levels.

Posted: **Mon Apr 27, 2020 5:27 pm**

Void wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 5:16 pm
malcolm_mountainslayer wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:14 pm I wanted to wait before posting this, for the monk dust to settle a bit, but we keep thinking the class in all the wrong directions.

More and more the class is betraying its original spirit and being a dip 3 or all out lots of lvl with subpar cookies in comparison to a pure swashbuckler. Goodluck even considering str monk as your bonus ac is gone and you will never have epic dodge (again swash can be str or dex based and has better ab)

The main rework/nerf/buff I think would allow monks to not be so gimpy is to rework how UBAB works.

Rather than scaling 11/8/5/etc bab, you have straight up bonus attack.

Example:

Lvl 1 monk would provide 1 bonus full ab attack and lvl 10 could provide another full bab attack.
This means monk dips could still get 2 extra attacks with their extra and flurry blows activated (- 2 ab for that) but won't be as an a abusable ridiculous ubab progression. It gives monk incentive to go to lvl 10 and once they are that far, they might consider pushing to 20 for the other cookies. Especially if we kept ac every 5

Trading ac for pure monk defensive roll was a very bad move. It even further pigeon hole monk builds where your only naginata users will be dip 3 monk paladins who take advantage of the the damage types of the blades and everything else has to be unarmed epic monk dex or 3 dip monk dex dual wield. E dodge monk builds get really bit in the arse as they lose 4 bonus ac just so pure monks can have epic dodge while making pure monks lose a bunch of ac to get there. Were 20 monk 10 rogue really overpowering the server these days?

Monk is still a must have for janky builds that were not even inspired by playing a monk and the class does monk very poorly as its core elements get nerfed/stripped. Rework how monk bonus attacks work, and then balance the class from there, otherwise you might as well nuke the bloody thing from orbit.

*edit*

Case and point:

If i want the high aca and ab, i need only dip 3 monk and go heavy swash buckler instead.
This sounds similar to kensai monks. Those received extra attack at level 1. However, the point of UBAB is having more attacks in the end and with higher chance to hit.

I think one interesting thing that could be done about the monk is forbidding multiclassing (meaning you pick different level than monk, no more monk levels for you) and locking most powerful abilities behind having majority monk levels.

Well its not kensai becuase my proposed idea is that it only works witj monk weapons and you can get more attacks with more lvls with ubab disabled. Having 3 attscks at full ab then 4 hasted would easily compete with ubab.

Blocking off multiclassing the way you suggested does nothing to dip builds and would only prevent/hurt suboptimal builds

Posted: **Mon Apr 27, 2020 5:35 pm**

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 5:27 pm Blocking off multiclassing the way you suggested does nothing to dip builds and would only prevent/hurt suboptimal builds

See the part about gating abilities behind having majority of monk levels.

Posted: **Mon Apr 27, 2020 6:18 pm**

Simply, there's plenty of OP build and what's not.
Well, balancing classes simply does not have any ending.
The point is whether there is counter-play.
As long as the power meter does not shoot off the roof, and counter-play does exist, it's probably fine as it is.

Regardless of how they mix dip ubab and such, when you meet a kensai barbarian/weapon master/fighter as a melee class, you're going to be butchered. And the only counter-play to this build is being an elusive spell caster( you gotta play it right ).

When the Crit threat of Naginata was reduced from 3x to 2x, i believed that it shows that the admin do care.

Posted: **Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:52 pm**

I agree with the sentiment that monk has really been relegated to a 3 level dip. The benefits are massive. UBAB for good weapons and your wisdom bonus gets converted to AC if you are unarmored. Now, most people take it for just the first thing, unless you are a dex build. I think the solutions are easy though.

1.) UBAB only kicks in if majority levels are monk.
2.) Wisdom AC scales getting 1 AC for every 2 levels in monk.

And poof, the monk dips will be gone. And don't tell me this limits your build diversity. I'm not saying you can't dip monk. I'm saying we should should reduce the benefits of a monk dip. In the process, we give pure-ish monk back some of the cookies it deserves given the lore of the class.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:05 am**

Archnon wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:52 pm And poof, the monk dips will be gone. And don't tell me this limits your build diversity. I'm not saying you can't dip monk.

A ranger or druid could take a monk dip, and RP as the gardener at a monastery.

A wizard or spellsword could take a monk dip, and RP as the scribe or librarian at a monastery.

A healer path cleric could take a monk dip, and RP as the healer at a monastery.

If we listen to you and poof, all monk dips are gone, that is a lot of characters that will just be rolled or forgotten and a huge limitation placed on monk players which eliminates a lot of build diversity.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:05 am**

Monk is one of the hardest classes to balance.

I don't agree about getting rid of dips, and I like almost all of the new changes in 'Monk 5.0'.

In fact, I love it all except the AC loss. Here I agree with Malcom that this disproportionately punishes STR Monks. I have a heavily invested STR Monk who just lost 5 AC with the only real gain being a more resilient empty body. (I don't count the SR as much of a factor, since without feat investment you are still fodder for a dedicated caster.) As a mid epic, his AC was in the forties, pushable into the fifties with expertise modes, which any git guhd can tell you is /not/ good. Now his AC is in the toilet, like wizard bad.

I think it would be perfect if the AC was reinstated. You now have a reason to go pure monk and monks in general would be very good without being the tiny gods they were before.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:09 am**

NPC Logger Number 2 wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:05 am
Archnon wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:52 pm And poof, the monk dips will be gone. And don't tell me this limits your build diversity. I'm not saying you can't dip monk.
A ranger or druid could take a monk dip, and RP as the gardener at a monastery.

A wizard or spellsword could take a monk dip, and RP as the scribe or librarian at a monastery.

A healer path cleric could take a monk dip, and RP as the healer at a monastery.

If we listen to you and poof, all monk dips are gone, that is a lot of characters that will just be rolled or forgotten and a huge limitation placed on monk players which eliminates a lot of build diversity.

I will repeat myself. My proposal does not bar anyone from taking a monk dip. I'm not saying monks should only be single class. All of these characters can and should exist.

What I am saying is that you can take a monk dip for RP reasons, mechanical reasons, or both. Right now, the mechanical reasons are highly incentivized. When I say "And poof, the monk dips will be gone.", it will be because all those players taking monk for the ubab and wis AC will think twice about taking monk. Instead, they will each choose one of a myriad of other equally weighted options for their dip creating greater build diversity and not forcing them into a specific RP. However, those players that want to play a monastic gardner or a monastic librarian, or a monastic healer will still take the dip because it reinforces their RP, still comes with really good benefits (Cleave, evasion, imrpoved unarmed strike, weapon focus unarmed, deflect arrow, monk speed, still mind and access to monk weapons which are mostly exotic).

The best part of a class should not come from a 3 level dip. Wizards don't get 9th circle spells at level 3. Rangers don't get Bane of enemies at level 3. Blackguards don't get an epic fiend at level 3. These things come with investment

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:35 am**

NPC Logger Number 2 wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:05 am
Archnon wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:52 pm And poof, the monk dips will be gone. And don't tell me this limits your build diversity. I'm not saying you can't dip monk.
A ranger or druid could take a monk dip, and RP as the gardener at a monastery.

A wizard or spellsword could take a monk dip, and RP as the scribe or librarian at a monastery.

A healer path cleric could take a monk dip, and RP as the healer at a monastery.

If we listen to you and poof, all monk dips are gone, that is a lot of characters that will just be rolled or forgotten and a huge limitation placed on monk players which eliminates a lot of build diversity.

You're describing western monk here, which is usually a scribe/commoner. D&D Monk class is based off eastern monk - i.e. shaolin. You can't just be "XYZ at monastery", you ideally should have a meaningful explanation of why you've decided to punch things and went through very rigorous training which tempered character's body and allowed application of their inherent insight in combat. Because a gardener, scribe or librarian doesn't do that.

It is not a small thing to do.

-------

Honestly, though... monk/wizard for librarian is roughly the same thing as having a resurrected Einstein as librarian, but only after putting him through navy seal training.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:48 am**

I'm just thinking that if the implementing of the changes does happen and there's no more benefits to Monk dip, i am very sure that the forum will have a topic which will hit thousands and complaints will definitely scale within matter of days. Perhaps the thread may even be locked in a single day.

As of now, there's no changes, some probably don't bother looking at forum, while some simply opt out from replying since it doesn't have any concerns yet. However, once the "door closed" for monk dips, it will affect many people.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:51 am**

Void wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:35 am
NPC Logger Number 2 wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:05 am
Archnon wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:52 pm And poof, the monk dips will be gone. And don't tell me this limits your build diversity. I'm not saying you can't dip monk.
Honestly, though... monk/wizard for librarian is roughly the same thing as having a resurrected Einstein as librarian, but only after putting him through navy seal training.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:02 am**

Biolab00 wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:48 am I'm just thinking that if the implementing of the changes does happen and there's no more benefits to Monk dip, i am very sure that the forum will have a topic which will hit thousands and complaints will definitely scale within matter of days. Perhaps the thread may even be locked in a single day.

Doubtful. A single forum page holds something like 20..25 responses, so you're talking about a 40 page thread here. I can't remmeber even one topic like that. There aren't that many people playing arelith in the first place.

You'll get a fraction of lore changes response at best.

Monks have to be lawful, so not everyone can dip into them.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:06 am**

Void wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:02 am
Biolab00 wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:48 am I'm just thinking that if the implementing of the changes does happen and there's no more benefits to Monk dip, i am very sure that the forum will have a topic which will hit thousands and complaints will definitely scale within matter of days. Perhaps the thread may even be locked in a single day.
Doubtful. A single forum page holds something like 20..25 responses, so you're talking about a 40 page thread here. I can't remmeber even one topic like that. There aren't that many people playing arelith in the first place.

You'll get a fraction of lore changes response at best.

Monks have to be lawful, so not everyone can dip into them.

Hehe. Even you feel that it's doubtful, hence, it's not impossible
I really don't want to imagine a trial test at all on this idea.
This tweak if approved, will only affect the strongest of players ( aka the current champion classes build ) which isn't probably shared.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:11 am**

Void wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:02 am
Biolab00 wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:48 am I'm just thinking that if the implementing of the changes does happen and there's no more benefits to Monk dip, i am very sure that the forum will have a topic which will hit thousands and complaints will definitely scale within matter of days. Perhaps the thread may even be locked in a single day.
Doubtful. A single forum page holds something like 20..25 responses, so you're talking about a 40 page thread here. I can't remmeber even one topic like that. There aren't that many people playing arelith in the first place.

You'll get a fraction of lore changes response at best.

Monks have to be lawful, so not everyone can dip into them.

i like that your argument against the hyperbolic idea that there will be "thousands" (loads) of complaints is just,
"there aren't enough people to be literally thousands."
But yes, that sort of change would be similar in reaction to many game-breaking changes.

What I can say is that the complaints about this update seem isolated to about a handful of people from what I've seen, while others have been able to capitalize on the update to round out their characters.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:00 am**

Jack Oat wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:11 am What I can say is that the complaints about this update seem isolated to about a handful of people from what I've seen, while others have been able to capitalize on the update to round out their characters.

The complaints are coming from dedicated monk players, and obviously you are not receiving them from people who used the class as a dip. Because the update does not affect dips. In fact, even if you forbade monk progression past level 3 it wouldn't affect dips.

What's more, silence absolutely does not mean that others were able to capitalize on the update, that's an assumption and interpreting the situation in favorable way.

Is this change a good thing? I don't know. I do hope that dev team isn't using some optimized level 30 build as baseline for making decisions. Most characters on the server aren't level 30, and it takes loads of time to get there. I never had a 30 character here before (despite having many characters and being here for a few years on and off), although I hit epics, and the talk about 65 or 70 ac with 50 ab sounds really bizzarre when you have level 4 character with no gear to speak of.

It also feels as if somebody came up with one specific way to play/build monk and is trying to encourage that specific path, that specific stat spread and not anything else. Doesn't quite feel right.

In the end I feel that RP server should encourage dedication and flavor, and monk being most useful as a dip does not quite help this.
Some of the changes also make me remember this steam thread:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/704450/d ... 071734139/
Because the talk about pvp meta, skyhigh ac, seems to concern a very different part of the server, the part which I never actually get to see. I maybe witness a player fight once per year at most, for example.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:13 am**

Void wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:00 am
Jack Oat wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:11 am What I can say is that the complaints about this update seem isolated to about a handful of people from what I've seen, while others have been able to capitalize on the update to round out their characters.
The complaints are coming from dedicated monk players, and obviously you are not receiving them from people who used the class as a dip. Because the update does not affect dips. In fact, even if you forbade monk progression past level 3 it wouldn't affect dips.

What's more, silence absolutely does not mean that others were able to capitalize on the update, that's an assumption and interpreting the situation in favorable way.

Is this change a good thing? I don't know. I do hope that dev team isn't using some optimized level 30 build as baseline for making decisions. Most characters on the server aren't level 30, and it takes loads of time to get there. I never had a 30 character here before (despite having many characters and being here for a few years on and off), although I hit epics, and the talk about 65 or 70 ac with 50 ab sounds really bizzarre when you have level 4 character with no gear to speak of.

It also feels as if somebody came up with one specific way to play/build monk and is trying to encourage that specific path, that specific stat spread and not anything else. Doesn't quite feel right.

In the end I feel that RP server should encourage dedication and flavor, and monk being most useful as a dip does not quite help this.
Some of the changes also make me remember this steam thread:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/704450/d ... 071734139/
Because the talk about pvp meta, skyhigh ac, seems to concern a very different part of the server, the part which I never actually get to see. I maybe witness a player fight once per year at most, for example.

Your argument is logical but this stems from player base of pure monk aka 30 levels ( Majority level in Monk ).

And jack and my post is actually referring to the dips 3 level thing being changed and not the whole Monk class as a general direction of discussion since your post actually went to the discussion of 30 levels of Monk.

For me though, the Monk class of 30 levels is a never-ending discussion because there will always be feedback/complains no matter how you change it. I have not yet seen there's no complain since the 1st change till now. No matter how much you change the Monk class, there's no so-called perfection balance.

I can only quote a scenario if the Character toon has this 3 levels dip and RP as a very strong player. But this tweak of removing the benefits of 3 levels dips will effectively kills the "strong" word. It will result in him/her thinking of rolling the class or what's not. It will not happen to many players but probably certain core players. The impact can be serious or not, depending on who is the current champion.

Below is the edit that my personal thought about the current Monk Update and this is likely the longest post that i've ever written-

Let's throw the class comparison mechanics away and just focus on Monk Class itself.

1st Monk Update -
Attack : Hits Hard [ So many Free Feats ]
Defence : Almost impossible to Hit [ Same as above ]
Magic Resistant : Almost impossible to Hit [ Too much Feat to spare for Improved SR ]

2nd Monk Update -
Attack : Hits Average [ 21Wis Req makes you have 3 less AB ]
Defence : Almost impossible to Hit [ There's practically no change here ]
Magic Resistant : Almost negligible [ Joke SR even with Imp SR invested because it can be reduced by breach spell, drinking restoration removes that but it cost 1 round and free attack of opportunity which likely will, kill you. ]

3rd Monk Update ( Current ) -
Attack : Hits Slightly Hard to Hard [ Depend on Feats' selection ]
Defense : From Slightly Hard to Hard to Hit [ Depend on Feats' selection ]
Magic Resistant : Below Average to Hard to Hit [ Depend on Feats' selection ]

Now, Magic Resistant at 32SR which can't be reduced is below average at most. If you Invest 6 Improved SR to make it 44SR, it will make you Hard to Hit with Magic because there's too little Pure casters ( Almost every build have caster dip with something ) and Spell Penetration feat isn't always invested. It is possible to invest Spell penetration and Greater spell Penetration but almost no one will go for Epic Spell Penetration because Arelith is too Feat hungry.
Hence if you choose 6 Improved SR, you will become
Attack : Slightly Hard,
Defense : Slightly Hard to Hit
Magic Resistant : Hard to Hit

So, If you go for Ki Strike x 2 Feat, Epic Dodge x 1, Great Dex x 1, Epic Prowress, Armor skin, [ Effectively 6 Feats for Pure Monk ]
Attack : Hits Hard
Defense : Hard to Hit
Magic Resistant : Below Average

If you opt for Monk / Fighter dips, you can get more feats and there's plenty of maneuver here and there with cross-class dips.

Hence, based on the the 3 updates, I really think that the current update is the most balance thus far. But there's still many voices in rejecting here and there. Any more boost and it will likely head to the 1st update Monk soon. I have no idea what the developer can even do here on this class.

To make it almost impossible to hit and almost impossible to be dealt by magic but simply non-existent in damage output? The living tank build. And i remember that there was complain/feedback before when i was bored and browsing the forum that it's not fun when you see the monk but you can't kill it and he can't kill you. That is really not fun at all.

And i must say that the monk is still plenty strong here.
I will just mention their damage output based on pure dex with 10 Strength and Pure Monk class.
1d20 + 6 (gloves) + 6 (+12 Strength enchantment) + 10 ( Dmg bonus + Ki Strike 4 & 5 bonus ) + 4 ( Essence ) + 1d6 ( Temp Essence ) =
28 - 52 dmg.
And the above damage is based on dex build.
I will have to remind everyone that it's also possible to cross-class to fighter / champion of torm or any others that you can possible think of, even dip swashbuckler. The damage can only be higher and not lower.

How to even balance more from here? I have no idea. :Flips the table:

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:01 am**

I have not yet seen there's no complain since the 1st change till now.

Well here's a complaint:

Monks are forced to go all in on dex and Epic Dodge now. This reduces build variety on a class that only gets 2 epic bonus feats, anyway. And pushes the server more towards a 'better build your character perfectly' meta, as complaints of people starting with 16 Dex having trouble to meet the requirements have popped up.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:16 am**

Marisakis wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:01 am
I have not yet seen there's no complain since the 1st change till now.
Well here's a complaint:

Monks are forced to go all in on dex and Epic Dodge now. This reduces build variety on a class that only gets 2 epic bonus feats, anyway. And pushes the server more towards a 'better build your character perfectly' meta, as complaints of people starting with 16 Dex having trouble to meet the requirements have popped up.

Yep you are complaining. There' plenty of complains everytime.
As i've quoted. There's no complain that haven't been seen since 1st change till now.

And i've made a long edit to my earlier post too on my personal thought on monk class

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:22 am**

Biolab00 wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:16 am Yep you are complaining. There' plenty of complains everytime.
As i've quoted. There's no complain that haven't been seen since 1st change till now.

Well, that just seems like lying to me because 30 Monk didn't have access to Epic Dodge before.. and Wisdom builds didn't suffer as much.. But what do I know?
Turns out they got Epic Dodge for free once, from the » 18 Apr 2019 update. But that was for free and didn't hit Wisdom builds as hard as this one has.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:28 am**

Biolab00 wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:16 am Yep you are complaining. There' plenty of complains everytime.
As i've quoted. There's no complain that haven't been seen since 1st change till now.

Well, that just seems like lying to me because 30 Monk didn't have access to Epic Dodge like this before.. and Wisdom builds didn't suffer as much.. But what do I know?
Turns out they got Epic Dodge for free once, from the » 18 Apr 2019 update. But that was for free and didn't hit Wisdom builds as hard as this one has.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:29 am**

Marisakis wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:22 am
Biolab00 wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:16 am Yep you are complaining. There' plenty of complains everytime.
As i've quoted. There's no complain that haven't been seen since 1st change till now.
Well, that just seems like lying to me because 30 Monk didn't have access to Epic Dodge before.. and Wisdom builds didn't suffer as much.. But what do I know?

The 1st update gives Monk free Epic Dodge before.
There's also plenty of build available to choose from even among dex-oriented build based on what feat you choose and what class you dip to.

Right, i'm rather obsessed with this thread, i think.
I will stop all my replies on this thread from now.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:06 am**

Biolab00 wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:13 am Below is the edit that my personal thought about the current Monk Update and this is likely the longest post that i've ever written-

Let's throw the class comparison mechanics away and just focus on Monk Class itself.

1st Monk Update -
Attack : Hits Hard [ So many Free Feats ]
Defence : Almost impossible to Hit [ Same as above ]
Magic Resistant : Almost impossible to Hit [ Too much Feat to spare for Improved SR ]

2nd Monk Update -
Attack : Hits Average [ 21Wis Req makes you have 3 less AB ]
Defence : Almost impossible to Hit [ There's practically no change here ]
Magic Resistant : Almost negligible [ Joke SR even with Imp SR invested because it can be reduced by breach spell, drinking restoration removes that but it cost 1 round and free attack of opportunity which likely will, kill you. ]

3rd Monk Update ( Current ) -
Attack : Hits Slightly Hard to Hard [ Depend on Feats' selection ]
Defense : From Slightly Hard to Hard to Hit [ Depend on Feats' selection ]
Magic Resistant : Below Average to Hard to Hit [ Depend on Feats' selection ]

You're missing speed reduction. Also, there's way too much focus on Level 30, epic feats, dips and multiclassing.

Biolab00 wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:13 am Now, Magic Resistant at 32SR which can't be reduced is below average at most. If you Invest 6 Improved SR to make it 44SR, it will make you Hard to Hit with Magic because there's too little Pure casters ( Almost every build have caster dip with something ) and Spell Penetration feat isn't always invested. It is possible to invest Spell penetration and Greater spell Penetration but almost no one will go for Epic Spell Penetration because Arelith is too Feat hungry.
Hence if you choose 6 Improved SR, you will become
Attack : Slightly Hard,
Defense : Slightly Hard to Hit
Magic Resistant : Hard to Hit

So, If you go for Ki Strike x 2 Feat, Epic Dodge x 1, Great Dex x 1, Epic Prowress, Armor skin, [ Effectively 6 Feats for Pure Monk ]
Attack : Hits Hard
Defense : Hard to Hit
Magic Resistant : Below Average

If you opt for Monk / Fighter dips, you can get more feats and there's plenty of maneuver here and there with cross-class dips.

Why not make it more interesting?

Your character dies after level 18, so you never reach epic levels.
Non-optimized stats. Let's say 14/14/14/14/14/10 for base stats and one stat gift.
You have 3 hour to play per day 2..3 times per week.
Most of the time you have no party.
Single class and no dips.

The way I see it, on a RP server this stuff should be playable enough, even if it can be tough.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:26 am**

Monks are all about consistancy both in play and in lore.
They hone, practice and perfect their techniques by repetition, many training at the same hour every single day for years without failure which is why they are Lawful, monks are structured and enduring. That is what should be reflected ingame, and for the most part it is.

The trouble is consistancy on a server where burst is the order of the day comes across as underwhelming. Removing the AC per 5 brings monks on par with other Dex classes (the only additional AC comes from base Wisdom so 0 to +3) while adding the ability to get Epic Dodge without dipping sets monk on even footing in terms of defence, but it goes against the theme of the class due to it being effectively a burst of untouchableness.
Reduction in speed and spell resistance were done to bring a little more balance, however with all these lowered and the removal of the AC per 5 it has left the Essential Monk (Unarmed, 20 levels or above) a little uninteresting by comparison. Combat Mastery helps a little but it is a soft AB and doesnt grant an additional attack that taking 4 pre epic levels in a full BAB class would, adding a total of 3 AB and 3 damage between 21 and 28. There is also the increase of healing by Wholeness of Body (1hp per level x wis) and the duration of Empty Body (6 rounds per level), the downer being Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm the main upsides to Unarmed are both utterly useless.

So, just leave Monks where they are? Not bad but not really excelling at anything?

Mechanics wise I would probably say yes for the most part, though I would like to see the Combat Mastery become hard AB at 28 just to underscore the dedication. Anything done to stunning fist and Q-palm would be nice too.
I would however like to see RP bonuses instead, things like the Tongue of the Sun and Moon which is still under development, being able to succeed automatically at things like climbing or swimming and generally stuff that shows off the dedication to perfecting one's self.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:28 am**

*Edit* Doubled posted for some reason

Arelith

Rethinking the Monk class

Rethinking the Monk class

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Re: Rethinking the Monk class

Re: Rethinking the Monk class

Re: Rethinking the Monk class

Re: Rethinking the Monk class

Re: Rethinking the Monk class

Re: Rethinking the Monk class

Re: Rethinking the Monk class

Re: Rethinking the Monk class

Re: Rethinking the Monk class

Re: Rethinking the Monk class

Re: Rethinking the Monk class

Re: Rethinking the Monk class

Re: Rethinking the Monk class