Arelith

Hey!

Disclaimer: if the existence of such a trap(s) in such a level bracket is an oversight , a bug, and just "not by design", please ignore the debate and let's move that to bug reports.

Disclaimer 2: I might seem butthurt or annoyed, and if I do, please add a lot of emoticons like " " every sentences. I'm quite cool with what happened and not calling names on anyone. Just want to share on the issue + player perspective. So be cool too! :p

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ANECDOTAL CONTEXT

Here's a little story!

Two characters do a dungeon.
One has a bit of investment in search but isn't the best relative to the level.
They are level 12-13, in a dungeon 10-16.
They reach the end boss with difficulty, luckily, it has no guards, the end is in sight if we can defeat the boss (which will be hard! but completely possible).
Boss-situation has those atomic parameters:

- Well, obviously, boss stats whatever they are
- Narrow corridor/stairs to reach it
- (At least) One epic trap next to it on the ground (either random or sonic, don't know yet)

We approach the boss carefully, and jump him.
The battle begins. Three rounds of swinging, it's gonna be tough but we can clearly make it if we dont eat too many crits.
Then, with a battle auto-move, my character sidesteps on the unseen epic trap.
The whole cluttered party/summons take 110 damages of sonic, with a 30+ will DC.
I'm sent straight to the fugue in a blink of an eye. (I had 75%+ life left before the trigger)
My ally has 3 hps left and is stunned, dies the next turn to the boss. (she was almost full life before the trigger)
We stare confusedly at the screen, i watch the combat log in frustration and with a distinct feeling of unfairness/design flaw.

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DEBATE

My thoughts:

In a 10-16 dungeon, you shouldn't never ever meet epic traps (that's why they are "epic", so level 21+!!!) UNLESS it's clearly foreshadowed with a difficulty curve or clear level art warnings: you most likely can't see them (or not in time if it's next to a boss), you most likely can't disarm them, you most likely can't reach the DC, and even more with a sonic trap, you just take the damage straight to the face. For the record we're talking about the same kind of trap there's before the end boss of the halfbreed fortress in sibayad, and all that dropped in a mid-teen dungeon, where the boss fight will happen, in a location made super-narrow where most people will trigger it the first time they come there simply because there's no other path to battle the boss.

I would like to add that Arelith has kind of an history with the subject of traps being misplaced by the script or by hand (=not level appropriate). It has been mostly fixed (#Cordor sewers), or nerfed (#Cordor crypts?), but we're not quite there yet (#sea bandits). But given the area i'm talking about is a rather new one, I just don't know if that's a fluke or a design choice. Traps are cool/fair when level appropriate, but are just buzzkiller/broken when used where they shouldn't.

To conclude, I advise that there should be some kind of "guide" about traps for Arelith's designers, a documentation as simple as a google sheet, that states the level appropriate use for each tiers of traps. Authorized breaching of that guide (using an higher tiers than level appropriate) would then be conditioned by a requirement to carefully foreshadow the "trap-difficulty spike" (by level arts, readable props, or a trap difficulty curve for that dungeon). Maybe traps should also be differentiated by nastyness, I can see a sonic epic traps obliterating a party in one or two triggers (and that's not talking about the stun, which is another save or die), whereas a negative energy one will just put one member half-life with a debuff.

Cheers!

Sorry for double post, wanted to add on that possible "document", maybe a system of cumulative modifiers:

"If you plan to use a trap at the place of a boss fight, then apply -1 to the authorized tiers of traps you can use"
"If you plan to use a trap in a narrow area (will almost always trigger), then apply -1 to the authorized tiers of traps you can use"
"If it's clearly foreshadowed/telegraphed in any way shape or form, then apply +1 to the authorized tiers of traps you can use"

etc.

I hate epic traps in mid level dungeons and I think they are a very bad way to make a boss spawn more challenging because all it'll do is kill you the first time you do the dungeon and never again after. Really not the way to make a boss spawn more challenging imo.

If I'm ever adding an especially dangerous trap I tend to mark it out with clues, such as excessive bones or corpses.

Yeah I noticed that, which is cool with me.

The dungeon in question was goblin town. Maybe someone from your team could give it a quick looksee, check if we're in the realm of good-design-i-didntget or an oversight.

Thanks!

Another thing to consider as vanilla traps erre designed for not minmax optimised max roll HD characters. A lvl 15 on arelith has the hp of a low level epic on normal campaign, so a few epic traps are okish

That trap by the boss in goblin town is mean. It got me once after I got the boss and was going for an archer hiding behind it (the boss had kilt my partner so we were done). Clues for traps are great, and maybe they are there (I didn't notice them at the time) but the dungeon is traumatic and the boss is scary...they are going to get missed a lot.

have to agree about the goblin boss.

I'm all in favor of traps being strong when they are marked and are a part of the decoration of the screen aka:

The lightnings when you walk on the scorched ground marks
the spider webs triggering relatively strong spiders landing on your head

Those are awesome. They add character and make the map more vivid.

The trap by the goblin boss on the stairs is EXACTLY the kind of things I dont like (if it's marked well enough and I just missed it then ignore this). Its hidden, deals 100+ damage and that boss slings death spells at lvl 11-16 writ btw on top of that. I didnt like that one personally. When I went to kill it a second time I brought death-ward and didnt walk on the stairs - now the boss is suddenly underpowered.

It's sadistic to have that trap there tbh. After you survive the Wrathful Castigation of the teen-leveled boss and you go for the loot. You click the chest - BAM 100dmg to the face. If you save the stun too bad. You're now on the wrong side of the trap and have to tank it again to get out. Who hurt you, dev?

My problem was the boss was standing on a resetting trap. There is no way to avoid it unless you're a marksman. Even most casters will be using summons, who eat the trap.

I now avoid that writ.