Arelith

To elaborate, something about the Saveless blind on Word of Faith ought to be looked at. As it stands, in my opinion, the spell is easily the strongest spell on the server, removing summons and being spammable an entirely viable option to fill your spellbook with, seeing as the spell gets stronger and stronger as you continue to cast it, eating -pray and remove blindness potions or whatnot, and remove blindness potions aren't often seen in shops, unless I'm missing them entirely when I check shops whenever I log on.

The blindness effect on the spell is a flat, SAVELESS, 9 seconds, and spammable to keep people permanently blinded through chaincasting by even a single cleric. Many people will prepare at least 4 on the 7th level it takes up, and then even extend or still the spell for more castings on higher levels just for more combat shutdown, which BY FAR outshines almost any other spell on the server, imo

Edit: You can also look at the fact that the 7th tier of Mummy Undead Stream casts the spell...as well as the Crinti High Priestess which you can dominate on an enchantment focus mage...and just...have Word of Faith for free, really.

700gp scroll of restoration from vendors removes blindness.

Or support your local potion brewer, since potions are faster.

There's also a particular chest loot item that will remove blindness multiple times.

Arigard wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 1:16 am 700gp scroll of restoration from vendors removes blindness.

It also takes 6 seconds to use and the blindness lasts 9 seconds.
You can slot at least four. Since it's AOE, it takes away the entire action economy in a group situation.
Leaves you Flat-Footed whilst you cast, meaning that the beefy Battle Cleric has already gotten a HUGE advantage in terms of attacks off on you.

Breaks Improved Expertise / Combat Stances (But you don't really use those in PvP anyways)

The big problem is that it's saveless.

/One/ Cleric, or a nerd with 50 lore can lock down an entire group PvP

I dont find anything overpowered about WoF at the moment.

Potions of RB are craftable by several classes if they take the feat and I find them relatively common to find in shops or the crafters directly.

This spell doesnt deal any damage. It also does not force your Pray by applying hard crowd control on you.

If it's a group situation isnt it fair to assume the opposing party also has a cleric? Or scratch that. Maybe they have a bard and you're screwed... with all your mighty WoFs. Group situations arent any realistic measure for comparison.

Scar wrote:It also takes 6 seconds to use and the blindness lasts 9 seconds.
You can slot at least four. Since it's AOE, it takes away the entire action economy in a group situation.
Leaves you Flat-Footed whilst you cast, meaning that the beefy Battle Cleric has already gotten a HUGE advantage in terms of attacks off on you.

Breaks Improved Expertise / Combat Stances (But you don't really use those in PvP anyways)

The big problem is that it's saveless.

/One/ Cleric, or a nerd with 50 lore can lock down an entire group PvP

I was simply pointing out that it's not a valid argument to say Word of Faith is strong because it's hard to find a counter. There is a cheap counter in NPC vendors all over the server that takes the form of a scroll that is useful to have on your character regardless.

Whether WoF is too strong because it is un-savable is a different discussion entirely.

It is good to point that WoF respects spell resistance. It have 13 CL when casted by scroll. Target have 60% chance to succeed the WoF SR check with 26SR. Target have 90% chance to succeed the SR check with 32SR. This brings the spell resistance's importance.

Many and many summons have 32SR to prevent instantly being deleted by WoF. That is why WoF was being combined with Morde. But it is now not a case since not many people reaches to 80 lore. Even with morde + wof combo, it needs whole two round to unsummon the summons.

About saveless blindness, you can just clear it by spending your half round while enemy spends a round for casting it unless it is not caster.

And about casters, silence is a way to shut them down.

Personally, I H8 WOF with passion in its current (vanilla) form.

That being said, it's been discussed countless times before and for some reason the general consensus was that it's OK.


All I have to say at this point is... rejoice for the lore change! This way at least every muggle doesn't get to use it all the time.

Arelith doesn’t have vanilla word of faith. Vanilla word of faith doesn’t allow a save at all.

-XXX- wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 8:14 amPersonally, I H8 WOF with passion in its current (vanilla) form.

Word of Faith: Auto blind only lasts 9 secons on successful will save, normal duration on failed save.

OK, I stand corrected.

Should have stated:
"I H8 WoF with passion in its current (barely changed) form."

I also think it is pretty bad.

A single cleric with three vampires or a summon can just force you to remain without improved expertise for about 6 or 7 rounds while you eat attacks from the summons.

Each time they cast WoF you will have to remove the blindness, the cleric can be hasted, you will likely be hasted too, but you are also likely removing blindness using a scroll or potion. This means the cleric gets an extra spell between WoFs to do as he pleases.

There are very few spells around that have this much utility (in fact, I don't think there is any that behaves this way). The spell would still be useful if it had a save to negate the blind entirely, solely on the fact that it pretty much automatically dispels summons when cast by a cleric.

This would be akin to Weird and Phantasmal killer leaving you with fear (-ab/ac), even if you made the saves, or Hold Monsters/Person leaving you slowed even if you made the save, and even then these wouldn't be so bad, because there are immunities to both slow and fear, but no immunities to blind.

It is even worse with a favored soul, where silent spell lets you cast 14+ words of faith. Getting an EDK, or mummies out, and then just alternating between cl 26 greater dispel magic, and a new word of faith, will just lock them down while your summon, or summons brutalize them. It is obnoxious in a way that even improved KD spam is not.

If it is to have no save for 9 seconds of blindness, it needs a cooldown of some kind so it cannot be spammed.

Shadowy Reality wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 8:40 am I also think it is pretty bad.

A single cleric with three vampires or a summon can just force you to remain without improved expertise for about 6 or 7 rounds while you eat attacks from the summons.

Each time they cast WoF you will have to remove the blindness, the cleric can be hasted, you will likely be hasted too, but you are also likely removing blindness using a scroll or potion. This means the cleric gets an extra spell between WoFs to do as he pleases.

There are very few spells around that have this much utility (in fact, I don't think there is any that behaves this way). The spell would still be useful if it had a save to negate the blind entirely, solely on the fact that it pretty much automatically dispels summons when cast by a cleric.

This would be akin to Weird and Phantasmal killer leaving you with fear (-ab/ac), even if you made the saves, or Hold Monsters/Person leaving you slowed even if you made the save, and even then these wouldn't be so bad, because there are immunities to both slow and fear, but no immunities to blind.

This^

I've always been of the opinion that WoF was a stupid spell. I won't use the word OP because even though it's strong in a lot of ways I don't think it's mechanically OP like some other spells or abilities are. I do however just think it's dumb...

Even with the changes to Arelith which change practically nothing.

Any spell that essentially disables your character and has no save vs it at all is just boring, not fun, not interesting for those on the receiving end, and needs to be changed. It's borderline trolling to use it against people because it's just so annoyingly stupid.

On top of that the summon removal factor is just as dumb, sure it can be resisted but not everything has SR, and even at that it also can't be saved in the relatively common case where the SR fails (against clerics and FS). Another dumb feature.

When you're on the receiving end of a WoF you just feel bad, it sucks, there's no counter that isn't after the fact, and it's not fun. If I fail a saving throw for any spell that has one then I can at least sit back and say "Well, at least I had a chance but I got a bad roll, it happens, time to get over it and continue enjoying and playing the game anyway." but with WoF that feeling just isn't there, all that's left is just bad vibes and annoyance. No one likes that, no one wants that.

Shadowy Reality wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 8:40 am A single cleric with three vampires or a summon can just force you to remain without improved expertise for about 6 or 7 rounds while you eat attacks from the summons.

Wait...

Why is Wof not friendly fire against your own summons? It should dismiss summons on everyone's sides.

If it doesnt then yes, the situation above is a problem with no counter, and it should be addressed, by making Wof dismiss ally summons.

Also, if you guys didnt know summons SR was lowered by 5~ all across the board to make it so Greater Breach + WoF scrolls do the same job Mord + Wof did before, only now at 50 lore investment.

I agree with My Decency.

The 9 seconds of saveless blind is very very very strong. Nine seconds can effectively win a battle.

Its not that its nine seconds, its that cleric, and especially favored soul can just keep spamming it again and again. And if an edk, or mummies are on the field, while you are eating a wof and greater dispel a round then gg.

If its just you and them, your options out of the wof, are almost non existant. At least imp kd spam had counters in gear and an epic feat.

A single cleric with three vampires or a summon can just force you to remain without improved expertise for about 6 or 7 rounds while you eat attacks from the summons.

Note that none of those summons have SR. You can simply remove them with WoF as well. You can even target the ground while you are blind to remove those summons. And, even if someone keep spamming you WoF, you can do the same thing with potions. Even if enemy is hasted, it will cost half a round to cast WoF. And it will take your half round to clear it.

You can always see WoF being casted (battle log), thus you can always put distance between yourself and enemy. If it is battle cleric, silent potion is a way to go. BUT favored soul is a certain problem in this scenario.

I think what AstralUniverse means to say is that more likely than not, those summons will have Spell Resistance cast on them, so you will need to breach each before a WoF, which are yet more actions of yours, just trying to catch up.

Shadowy Reality wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 10:56 am I think what AstralUniverse means to say is that more likely than not, those summons will have Spell Resistance cast on them, so you will need to breach each before a WoF, which are yet more actions of yours, just trying to catch up.

That depends on encounter. But in SR casted summon case, yeah. There is not much you can do.

PM and Cleric Vampires have access to SR, through respective class abilities.

WoF has a save. I think we're done here boys.

Ork wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 1:01 pm WoF has a save. I think we're done here boys.

Word of Faith: Auto blind only lasts 9 seconds on successful will save, normal duration on failed save.

9 seconds on successfull will save

AstralUniverse wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 10:52 am

Zaphiel wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 10:45 am Note that none of those summons have SR. You can simply remove them with WoF as well.

lol

Shadowy Reality wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 10:56 am I think what AstralUniverse means to say is that more likely than not, those summons will have Spell Resistance cast on them, so you will need to breach each before a WoF, which are yet more actions of yours, just trying to catch up.

I havent even thought about that you can SR your vamps. I was just laughing that the proposed counter to wof is... Wof, but with 50 lore requirement. Lol. And I really mean no disrespect. It's a valid strategy, but it doesnt make it any less funny.

Spamming it is pretty busted. In a recent group fight I kept a few opponents blind for pretty much 60 seconds. I'm not saying this as a victim of the tactic, either.