Arelith

PureClassing is fun,
though the lack of Spot as class skill is the reason for dipping Rogue.

Most people dip for certain skills like Discipline and/or Tumble and that is fine. I'd fully support giving pure class builds extra cookies at level 28 though.

Pure classes are boring, it's like having a plain breadstick without the cheese dip.

Nekonecro wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 1:15 am Pure classes are boring, it's like having a plain breadstick without the cheese dip.

lmao, everything about this ^

D&D has never been about pureclassing - except maybe before the idea of a multiclassing existed.

Thematic purity that rebukes the notion of the narrative dip is just stubbornness and misconception at this point.

Seven Sons of Sin wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 3:51 am D&D has never been about pureclassing - except maybe before the idea of a multiclassing existed.

Thematic purity that rebukes the notion of the narrative dip is just stubbornness and misconception at this point.

Stop trying to make fetch happen. It's not going to happen.

Seven Sons of Sin wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 3:51 am D&D has never been about pureclassing - except maybe before the idea of a multiclassing existed.

Thematic purity that rebukes the notion of the narrative dip is just stubbornness and misconception at this point.

Except for casters, especially mages, it's canonically not. There are competitions in mage fairs across the realms where mages compete to see who can make the biggest fireball, who can hurl the biggest meteors, etc. Mechanically, the way you represent that is having full caster levels, or more than your competition, and in NWN the only way to do that is to pure class or take an alignment/deity-locked prestige class that preserves your caster levels.

I agree it's silly to say that you can't be a powerful mage and multiclass.

Would you be willing to admit it's demonstrably true that a sorcerer26/paladin4 is a less potent spellcaster IC than a 30 sorcerer, whose meteor swarm will in fact do more damage (be bigger/hotter) because mechanics dictate this particular aspect of the RP?

doesn't practically every single named mage NPC have like 3+ competing classes for no especial reason.

hmm wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 12:54 am PureClassing is fun,
though the lack of Spot as class skill is the reason for dipping Rogue.

It is what it is.
You're not supposed to be able to do everything. Different classes have different party roles. Choosing to be the badass warrior who crits for 200 or reedy little mage who can bend reality to his will with magic means not being the skills guy.

Might-N-Magic wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 7:34 am

hmm wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 12:54 am PureClassing is fun,
though the lack of Spot as class skill is the reason for dipping Rogue.

It is what it is.
You're not supposed to be able to do everything. Different classes have different party roles. Choosing to be the badass warrior who crits for 200 or reedy little mage who can bend reality to his will with magic means not being the skills guy.

Define "not supposed to". Forgotten Realms mages, specifically, are supposed to be able to learn a spell called blindsight as a third level spell, that gives them an option to deal with a skill-check they normally can't overcome by, as was aptly put, bending reality to their will. They're not skills guy, they solve things with magic.

Obviously, we can't have every PnP spell, but in the case of this specific argument, I think this one kind of applies. You can point to true seeing, but its duration was nerfed to six seconds for breaking stealth, with the argument that mages should be using skills to spot stealthers rather than spells.

No pure intelligence or charisma focus mage will ever have a wisdom or detect score high enough to compete with a dex-based character's stealth score- it's mechanically improbable to the degree of virtual impossibility unless someone intentionally ruins their stealth character's build.

It seems contradictory to me to take away the reality-bending solution to the problem and tell them to get a skill solution when the skill solution is all but numerically impossible for the people who are most invested in reality-bending.

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 2:27 amDefine "not supposed to". Forgotten Realms mages, specifically, are supposed to be able to learn a spell called blindsight as a third level spell, that gives them an option to deal with a skill-check they normally can't overcome by, as was aptly put, bending reality to their will. They're not skills guy, they solve things with magic.

A detect magic cantrip is usually pretty effective too. Many persons carry a magical item or two. Even if the person could not be seen one would know the aura was there.

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 2:27 am Etc etc etc...

How many of those spells you have? Did you come prepared with them or forget to memorize them for this encounter? Did you cast them at the appropriate moment or waste them, finding no one because that sneaky guy was out or range?

If you want to into PnP, there are plenty of feats, magical items, and classes that all can thwart and counter all those spells outright without nary a problem. Any master thief dealing with mages will have come prepared if they're not stupid.

Most servers realize this and the value of "the skills guy" party role and do appropriate things to balance themselves to keep things in line. They remove the rogue skills from the pixie familiar (Jj did this ages ago but for some reason the regimes afterward undid it, as if mages really needed free skills). They nerf True Sight to something like See Invis, Ultravision, and maybe +5 to Spot.

You're not meant to do everything. DnD is a party cooperative game. That's why half the skills on your class list aren't for your class and the spellbook for a fighter is utterly empty.

The class diagram is a square with warrior, skills monkey, arcane magic, and divine magic on each corner with each character falling somewhere between them.

If you want to get around it, you can sacrifice a resource to, one of your three classes. At least you're giving something up then... Be thankful you can skilldump.

Kuma wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 6:54 am doesn't practically every single named mage NPC have like 3+ competing classes for no especial reason.

Aside Larloch, Mordenkainen, Halaster Blackcloak that's true, but I think for the most part they use magic themed prestige classes: archmage, red wizard of thay, arcanist, loremaster,etc.

They aren't taking ranger that's for sure.

Naiinara wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 3:08 pm

Kuma wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 6:54 am doesn't practically every single named mage NPC have like 3+ competing classes for no especial reason.

Aside Larloch, Mordenkainen, Halaster Blackcloak that's true, but I think for the most part they use magic themed prestige classes: archmage, red wizard of thay, arcanist, loremaster,etc.

They aren't taking ranger that's for sure.

I mean, let's be entirely fair: Discipline isn't a skill in PnP, and mages above level 9 aren't scared of being combat manuever'd to death regardless because they're in the air away from the dumb fighter 24/7.

Trying to compare what's optimal in PnP to what's optimal in NWN is kind of silly, but the basic idea that "mUltIcLaSsInG iS bAd RoLePlaY" that seems to be an undertone in all of these threads is just silly.

It is also a side effect (and an unavoidable one) of the level cap and the medium.

A wiz 18/rogue 12 is, in PnP, not a terrible wizard. Outside of the immediate player party who by conceit level at the same rate as him he is likely one of the most accomlished potent wizards in the geographical region as well as being rather good at roguish things too.
Because we have a level cap at 30 (and no I'm not arguing for it to be removed) he quite obviously and demonstrably falls short of the benchmark of wizardly potency by comparison to a 27/3.

We have understandably internalised thinking of every character eventually being a level 30, because they will usually become so. In a PnP setting, some won't survive to 30, some will retire and even if they reach 30, the vast majority of characters (NPCs mostly) that they interact with probably won't even have class levels let alone epic levels. There is also, in PnP nothing to stop that 18/12 progressing their wizarding expertise a few more levels.

Aodh Lazuli wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 8:54 am

Kuma wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 6:54 am doesn't practically every single named mage NPC have like 3+ competing classes for no especial reason.

-

To answer this point (late, because other people did already) most named mage NPCs are well into epic levels. Unless looking at Elminster specifically, who has a level of fighter, two of rogue, three of cleric (and a literal entire novel that explains these first three class choices), and then twenty-five arcane caster levels on top of his Chosen of Mystra template (because you all really wanted to know this for the conversation, thanks again, snarky one), most Named Mages have over 90% of their class levels in ones that provide arcane caster level.

I never said multi-classing was bad RP (and for that matter, neither did the OP), although certainly some people have used that argument in the past- what I said was that if you play a caster who is pursuing mastery of their craft, especially in any kind of competitive sense (and there are loads of text involving mages with rivalries with each other), multi-classing doesn't make sense, because fewer caster levels literally equals less potent magic IC. This is a mechanically demonstrable fact that bears acknowledgement.

Ignoring that and writing off everyone that wants to play a pure mage as a bad gamer as a result is just as blind and illogical as calling multi-classers bad RP'ers - both extremes are committing the same Stormwind Fallacy, just in reverse of each other.

However, I didn't see anyone saying anyone was a bad RP'er- what I saw was a mage player with no tools to reliably detect stealth (a tool they used to have as a spell slot) saying that it'd be nice if mages could get spot as a class skill to make up for the change, since the logic of the change was "people should be using spot," and not "every mage should multiclass because I think they're bad if they don't."

Don't we legitimately risk homogenization if everyone gets the same stuff?

Ork made a passing remark about Arelith and MMOs. Grumpy Cat often remarks how this is so far away from traditional D&D because it's an always-online world with thousands of characters not 4 characters and a hands-on DM in someone's basement.

We don't have fly as a spell, and scry as a 5th level spell. So obviously we can't compare casters to their PnP counterparts. We also don't have DMs actively trying to restrict and control and adapt to the power level of casters that you'd get if you sat down at a table with your character sheet.

Wizards can cross-class Spot, yeah? It's not like its infeasible. If we don't err on the side of caution with class skills, everyone is going to have skill ranks in everything.

Which to me, I think opens up a bigger can of worms.

If anything, tweak See Invisibility to give Spot bonuses or something and force a mage to spend their spell slots. I would flip True Seeing around, and give the Spot bonus at Turns/Rounds and Ultravision/See Invisibility at Rounds/Levels. I'd also make the Spot bonus less than it is currently, and have it scale harder off of Divination focuses.

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 6:08 pmmost Named Mages have over 90% of their class levels in ones that provide arcane caster level.

this is probably an exception, but just one that bewilders me and is close to what i'm playing these days

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 5:47 amThere are competitions in mage fairs across the realms where mages compete to see who can make the biggest fireball

"who's level 10 or not" also isn't especially compelling in the "better mages & gardens" competition, can i just add

d20srd wrote:A fireball spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6)

Kuma wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 12:32 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 6:08 pmmost Named Mages have over 90% of their class levels in ones that provide arcane caster level.

this is probably an exception, but just one that bewilders me and is close to what i'm playing these days

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 5:47 amThere are competitions in mage fairs across the realms where mages compete to see who can make the biggest fireball

"who's level 10 or not" also isn't especially compelling in the "better mages & gardens" competition, can i just add

d20srd wrote:A fireball spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6)

A delayed blast fireball is still a fireball, and at cl 20 can be empowered to 30d6. Which is easier if you have 20 levels in wizard for extra metamagic feats, yes? That also doesn't address the biggest meteors, or the ice storm competitions, the last of which continues scaling in epic levels.

I'd be happy to point you at some mage faire lore later when I get home, but maybe in a PM since this is wandering away from whether or not losing true seeing as a reliable stealth answer merits gaining spot as a class skill.

Please add a class that can do everything the other classes can do so that I can play a pureclass character.

The D&D rulebooks are just a suggestion as to how to play a PnP game, much less a homemade MORPG like this. Most PnP games I've played have tweaked the rules or lore a bit to help the DM tell their story. They aren't the be-all, end-of of how to play and we certainly have to adapt the rules to make an always-on multiplayer game work.

Do NPCs break the rules? Well, they should. Some of them are larger than life and more powerful than any of our characters will be. Are they listed as having class combos we can't in some rulebook somewhere? Who cares? That's not Arelith. If Elminster was brought into Arelith he'd be (a) someone like Lord Vetinari who's beyond the scope of what PCs can attain and (b) have a class and level spread that's based on Arelith's unique culture (and probably ridiculously overpowered because a DM would be controlling him and want to shut down any level 30 PCs who think they can take him out.)

I'd be for giving every level 30 pure-class a little boon because why not, we already have a few classes like druid and warlock that are ideal pure-classed anyway and some where it's a strong and viable option (healer, wild mage, who knows about monk and hexblade and swashbuckler..). But you can't give everybody everything. If everyone has spot there's not much point in playing a disguiser or stealther and if we want the game to be actually fun to play you have to weigh that into the equation, heavily invested stealthers need to get away with it more often than they don't.

Dr. B wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 3:09 am Please add a class that can do everything the other classes can do so that I can play a pureclass character.

Snark, but at least your snark strives to make a point, so thanks for that, and I'll address it-

Why not? We made scrolls lore-based. I also don't understand how anyone can make such a statement in this discussion with a straight face if they aren't presently raging and crusading against the existence of shadowmage, which gets not only spot as a class skill with its full caster level progression, but also hide, move silently, listen, and HiPS. Unless the stance is that only evil-deity-locked classes deserve to get toys from other classes.

We also "fixed" Beamdog's "bug," which was actually an exploit fix, and gave every mundane character the ability to be harder to dispel than a level 27 caster, and this change was wildly applauded despite it giving caster-exclusive advantages to non-casters.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander- I'm not saying you are in favor of the Shadowmage class as it exists, or the "bug fix," but so long as these exist, I don't understand why a regular sorcerer and wizard shouldn't also get, at the least, Spot.

Seven Sons of Sin wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 6:16 pm Don't we legitimately risk homogenization if everyone gets the same stuff?

Ork made a passing remark about Arelith and MMOs. Grumpy Cat often remarks how this is so far away from traditional D&D because it's an always-online world with thousands of characters not 4 characters and a hands-on DM in someone's basement.

We don't have fly as a spell, and scry as a 5th level spell. So obviously we can't compare casters to their PnP counterparts. We also don't have DMs actively trying to restrict and control and adapt to the power level of casters that you'd get if you sat down at a table with your character sheet.

Wizards can cross-class Spot, yeah? It's not like its infeasible. If we don't err on the side of caution with class skills, everyone is going to have skill ranks in everything.

Which to me, I think opens up a bigger can of worms.

If anything, tweak See Invisibility to give Spot bonuses or something and force a mage to spend their spell slots. I would flip True Seeing around, and give the Spot bonus at Turns/Rounds and Ultravision/See Invisibility at Rounds/Levels. I'd also make the Spot bonus less than it is currently, and have it scale harder off of Divination focuses.

I'd be fine with your suggestion there at the end, but I feel that claiming giving spot to wizards and sorcerers risks overall homogenization either ignores the current state of affairs (where shadowmages already get this, in addition to way more), or it ignores the eternal dilemma of any build that isn't wisdom-focused; even if you give a sorc or a wizard spot as a class skill and they max it, they still don't have a wisdom score of +15 to pair with it, and the advantage still goes to the stealther by a solid 10-15 points, assuming both sides max their gear investments- spells that give boosts to spot and gear bonuses collectively stack at +50, so the spells won't give any extra advantage over the sneakers and they still wind up with a clear and present advantage.

But something should be done to give (plain) mages an option longer than six seconds, either way.

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 5:00 am

Dr. B wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 3:09 am Please add a class that can do everything the other classes can do so that I can play a pureclass character.

Snark, but at least your snark strives to make a point, so thanks for that, and I'll address it-
...
Why not? We made scrolls lore-based. I also don't understand how anyone can make such a statement in this discussion with a straight face if they aren't presently raging and crusading against the existence of shadowmage, which gets not only spot as a class skill with its full caster level progression, but also hide, move silently, listen, and HiPS. Unless the stance is that only evil-deity-locked classes deserve to get toys from other classes.

Shadowmage PCs do not have access to hide or move silently, let alone listen. They are wizards in every way with the exception of losing permanent access to Evocation in all its forms (WoF scrolls, wands and items included).

They have to cross-class to get access to these skills, the same as any other PC.

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 5:00 am We also "fixed" Beamdog's "bug," which was actually an exploit fix, and gave every mundane character the ability to be harder to dispel than a level 27 caster, and this change was wildly applauded despite it giving caster-exclusive advantages to non-casters.

If you can't see how this "exploit" would've ruined server balance, I don't think your opinion on balance should even be entertained.

Apokriphos wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 5:05 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 5:00 am

Dr. B wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 3:09 am Please add a class that can do everything the other classes can do so that I can play a pureclass character.

Snark, but at least your snark strives to make a point, so thanks for that, and I'll address it-
...
Why not? We made scrolls lore-based. I also don't understand how anyone can make such a statement in this discussion with a straight face if they aren't presently raging and crusading against the existence of shadowmage, which gets not only spot as a class skill with its full caster level progression, but also hide, move silently, listen, and HiPS. Unless the stance is that only evil-deity-locked classes deserve to get toys from other classes.

Shadowmage PCs do not have access to hide or move silently, let alone listen. They are wizards in every way with the exception of losing permanent access to Evocation in all its forms (WoF scrolls, wands and items included).

They have to cross-class to get access to these skills, the same as any other PC.

Believe he is referring to their ability to take 9 levels in Shadowdancer, gaining access to all those skills and still get full caster level progression.