Arelith

This is bound to be touchy, because greater sanctuary has seen some historic abuses, but I've recently noticed that its current implementation has some problems.

The top of this list IMO is counterplay. I've recently found that just about any epic arcanist can shred a GS through area targeting of a MK's Disjunction. This is particularly bad if you are a cleric, because GS is not only on the breach list, it is the top of the list that clerics can cast, barring domain chicanery.

This is further complicated by a more than favorable amount of MK's Disjunction items in the module (most of my characters have a short handful)., so that anyone can use them. Morever, you can spam MK's Disjuntion, but GS has a timer.

This really render's GS completely inviable in anything but PvE maneuvers. Against a skilled player in PvP, its just a waste of time for you to cast.

I suppose there are a couple of solutions to this.
1) Remove it from the Breach List. (I like this idea, and I have no problem if it is a contested roll subject to the normal dispelling checks on a Disjunction. This would probably be the most elegant way to balance withdrawl ability in PvP, which is now totally in the hands of Time Stop/Arcanists.)
2) Move it waaaay down the Breach List. (I don't like this as much, obviously, and would likely have no effect in quick draw PvP.)
3) Remove the timer on GS. (Perhaps the most dangerous to server balance. We all know the duration was reduced to prevent mostly PvE nonsense, and chaining them together might enable this again. Scripting might have since solved some of these concerns, in which case its no worse than what an epic sneak can do already, but I'm not sure.)

This has been the case for a long time.
It's not necessarily a balance issue, but it sort of revolves more around timing, tempo and player skill in general.

Probably the best counterplay is to run as fast as possible away from your current location immediately after casting the GS.


Both a successfully executed GS and it getting removed by a timely placed Mord AoE can have a huge impact on the overall outcome of the encounter, that's why both GS and Mord might seem very frustrating at times... but I'd say that they balance each other out nicely. They're both just very swingy impactful effects, that's all.

I think GS is a strong spell. Pretty much every pvp I've lost in my life against a cleric was because I missed my Mord on the ground and the cleric rekt me fully warded when they were done warping up. At that point, a spam of disjunction scrolls will barely tickle them. Why is Aura vs Alignment not on the breach list like every other damage shield, is also a good question.

-XXX- wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 6:32 am Probably the best counterplay is to run as fast as possible away from your current location immediately after casting the GS.

This is correct.

Yep
Technically, it's not possible that they will mord the ground after you've GS.

Particularly, when hasted, GS takes 2sec to cast and you should just run.

In the case when you are going to cast GS, and they are also casting mord, it's usually their "usual action" which in a sense, they just blindly hit you correctly when you GS.

A tip is, a dispelling cast animation is very obvious, you should just wait for him to mord you first, if he's casting, then gs and run off asap.

Based on recent experience, I don't think running=viable counterplay.

I haven't been missed at all, even after getting a greater sanctuary up, because the breach part of Mord's is also a large area effect, automatically strips the top two effects (see my cleric argument earlier as to why this is a problem), and the fact that a large part of the server is dungeon, cavern, city.

For this to work, you would likely have to have haste up, be on open ground, and pray they somehow choose the entirely wrong direction to plunk down their large area of effect...which, by the way, they can just do again - but you can't.

Let me add option 4 to my list.
4) Put Mord's on a 240.0 second timer.

This would be actual counterplay.

RedGiant wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 4:13 am Based on recent experience, I don't think running=viable counterplay.

I haven't been missed at all, even after getting a greater sanctuary up, because the breach part of Mord's is also a large area effect, automatically strips the top two effects (see my cleric argument earlier as to why this is a problem), and the fact that a large part of the server is dungeon, cavern, city.

For this to work, you would likely have to have haste up, be on open ground, and pray they somehow choose the entirely wrong direction to plunk down their large area of effect...which, by the way, they can just do again - but you can't.

Let me add option 4 to my list.
4) Put Mord's on a 240.0 second timer.

This would be actual counterplay.

I'm just giving you a tip as well, since you may not be familar with what's the action when conflict arises.

I totally believed that the 1st spell in every conflict, is always haste. You have to be hasted, even if you are a melee fighter, in any conflict. Hence, it's always a given that when someone drink a potion of haste or cast a haste spell, this will trigger into an outright battle.

Then, as i've said, the follow-up action of mord has a very obvious casting animation. Like i have covered, they usually cast it as a first spell ( a usual action even if you didn't GS ). Hence, if they didn't cast it, you should GS and run off. If they did cast, you should just wait awhile by running ( not standing still ). I haven't met anyone that cast 2 mords in a row thus far.

Then again, it's also very easy to avoid their mord on ground because mord on ground covers even the caster, himself, and allies.
If they didn't cast True Sight which last 1 round ( and i never encounter someone who cast Mord then true sight immediately before ), you should run in the direction of the enemy and run across them. They will never mord themselves, it's the most logical method because they can't see you once you GS, even if you are in front on them, literally.

All in all, it depend on your reaction speed. Because caster is a very tedious class for me, i totally dropped my caster toon and went for a more relaxing melee instead. Being a caster really eat alot of your reaction and brain speed. Imagine, if you play dota2, some people use Rubick in a really godlike manner and i use Rubick in a noobass way

I am aware of disjunctioning for G-sanc and i've missed twice recently in two seperate occasions. Maybe it's because I am casting it and not using an item, idk. Usually though like I'm not watching like a hawk for that to pop up so I'm a bit behind on the cast but throw it down anyways incase they've not moved.

It's not always obvious when your opponent is going to cast it imo but I am not a super elite pvper either so maybe my like attention to detail just isn't practiced enough.

Royal Blood wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 4:44 am I am aware of disjunctioning for G-sanc and i've missed twice recently in two seperate occasions. Maybe it's because I am casting it and not using an item, idk. Usually though like I'm not watching like a hawk for that to pop up so I'm a bit behind on the cast but throw it down anyways incase they've not moved.

It's not always obvious when your opponent is going to cast it imo but I am not a super elite pvper either so maybe my like attention to detail just isn't practiced enough.

Actually, you should get used to it not from PVP but from PVE.
That's how i usually see it rather easily. You will always notice when the monster is going to dispel you hence, you always kill the mages first.
You will face those PVE monster that cast mord and greater dispel very regularly, it makes me almost want to scream when i saw them going to cast it.

Absolutely no buff should come to Greater Sanctuary. Counterplay against it via Mord's has always been an option, given that it's a saveless spell that renders you immune to direct attacks and that your opponent is required to cast True Seeing to pierce in order to know where to launch a Mord's. That is Fair And Balanced Gameplay at its peak.

Against a skilled player in PvP, its just a waste of time for you to cast.

I don't agree. It's all about casting it at the right time. I haven't an issue breaching a sanctuary if it's the first spell a PC casts ( especially when they are not hasted ) as it becomes the most predictable thing in the world, however breaching it mid-PvP is, and you can be as 'skilled' as you like, pretty difficult because, well, you have to predict it and this can be difficult.

Actually while on the topic, why is protection domain still unchanged? I don't think a character should be able to heal and remain untargetable at the same time.

Tarkus the dog wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 9:03 am

Against a skilled player in PvP, its just a waste of time for you to cast.

I don't agree. It's all about casting it at the right time. I haven't an issue breaching a sanctuary if it's the first spell a PC casts ( especially when they are not hasted ) as it becomes the most predictable thing in the world, however breaching it mid-PvP is, and you can be as 'skilled' as you like, pretty difficult because, well, you have to predict it and this can be difficult.

Actually while on the topic, why is protection domain still unchanged? I don't think a character should be able to heal and remain untargetable at the same time.

Because the protection domain, other than its protection domain powers, is completely useless when it comes to spell selection, and is 1round/caster level 1/day(+ your charisma mod), unextendable. If you lessened it any further, no one would ever choose it. Also, unlike greater sanctuary, it has an actual will save, and although it scales higher than most other spells on the server, it does not come close to being unbeatable on a server where 40+ to all saves is doable.

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 5:11 pm

Tarkus the dog wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 9:03 am

Against a skilled player in PvP, its just a waste of time for you to cast.

I don't agree. It's all about casting it at the right time. I haven't an issue breaching a sanctuary if it's the first spell a PC casts ( especially when they are not hasted ) as it becomes the most predictable thing in the world, however breaching it mid-PvP is, and you can be as 'skilled' as you like, pretty difficult because, well, you have to predict it and this can be difficult.

Actually while on the topic, why is protection domain still unchanged? I don't think a character should be able to heal and remain untargetable at the same time.

Because the protection domain, other than its protection domain powers, is completely useless when it comes to spell selection, and is 1round/caster level 1/day(+ your charisma mod), unextendable. If you lessened it any further, no one would ever choose it. Also, unlike greater sanctuary, it has an actual will save, and although it scales higher than most other spells on the server, it does not come close to being unbeatable on a server where 40+ to all saves is doable.

I'm not sure how you can justify something so broken because if it wasn't so broken it would be 'useless'. Yes, there is a will save on it, a will save only a paladin+champion of torm or sorcerer paladin/blackguard gets to pass and nobody else. I'm sure there is a way to change the domain in a way where it's still useful without becoming "their cleric is in sanctuary, we automatically lose".

I'm also sure you agree with me that there shouldn't be a mechanic in the game which heals a high kill pressure build from near death to uninjured several times throughout a single PvP scenario and the only counter to it is to either one-shot the enemy or pass a 43~ DC will check.

1round/caster level 1/day(+ your charisma mod), unextendable.

I'm not sure what is this supposed to prove either, it's as if this is not more than enough to wipe out an entire Andunor raid party with any single semi-decent melee or ranged build.

Placeholder for the plethora of reasons I don't agree with your interpretation.

Short version:

1: Other builds can get those saves.
2: You've effectively argued the healer path shouldn't exist at all, and I don't agree.
3: If in mass pvp protection domain wins the fight, the mages on the other side suck- I say this objectively as someone who has mained a mage for the last 15 years- if my side loses because of protection domain, I was garbage at my job.

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 3:03 am Placeholder for the plethora of reasons I don't agree with your interpretation.

Short version:

1: Other builds can get those saves.
2: You've effectively argued the healer path shouldn't exist at all, and I don't agree.
3: If in mass pvp protection domain wins the fight, the mages on the other side suck- I say this objectively as someone who has mained a mage for the last 15 years- if my side loses because of protection domain, I was garbage at my job.

Healer doesn't equate to cha-sancer meme. In my opinion, it's the most boring and least fun to play variant of healer and the overall caster cleric archetype. If the DC were something like a DC 43 will save, then sure, maybe, but oftentimes people who take protection domain push it towards 53~. There is a very small number of builds that can reliably hit that DC threshold, namely the ones Tarkus gave as an example.

To be honest, I mostly agree with Tarkus in that the protection domain's power could probably be tweaked.

On topic, I don't think greater sanctuary needs any alteration.

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 3:03 am Placeholder for the plethora of reasons I don't agree with your interpretation.

Short version:

1: Other builds can get those saves.
2: You've effectively argued the healer path shouldn't exist at all, and I don't agree.
3: If in mass pvp protection domain wins the fight, the mages on the other side suck- I say this objectively as someone who has mained a mage for the last 15 years- if my side loses because of protection domain, I was garbage at my job.

If you've got that much experience, I'm not sure why you're stating things that are just 100% false. You will not burst down a healer cleric in the 3-6 seconds it takes him to cast protection domain (Especially not with timestop reduced to "greater sanctuary but worse" status) unless you get lucky with a death spell or you get lucky dropping AoE spells all over the place afterwards.


edit: also if you do somehow come close to killing said protection domain healer, he has -respite. which is a free action, makes you immune to all cc, stops you from dying for the duration, and heals you when it's over

Am I missing something about Protection Domain's Sanctuary? Because it is actually a sanctuary which is in Breach List. You can Morde it and person going to be very vulnerable against it because he is not going to run away like Greater Sanctuary, he need to stick close to his allies for healing them.

Hunter548 wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 5:09 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 3:03 am Placeholder for the plethora of reasons I don't agree with your interpretation.

Short version:

1: Other builds can get those saves.
2: You've effectively argued the healer path shouldn't exist at all, and I don't agree.
3: If in mass pvp protection domain wins the fight, the mages on the other side suck- I say this objectively as someone who has mained a mage for the last 15 years- if my side loses because of protection domain, I was garbage at my job.

If you've got that much experience, I'm not sure why you're stating things that are just 100% false. You will not burst down a healer cleric in the 3-6 seconds it takes him to cast protection domain (Especially not with timestop reduced to "greater sanctuary but worse" status) unless you get lucky with a death spell or you get lucky dropping AoE spells all over the place afterwards.


edit: also if you do somehow come close to killing said protection domain healer, he has -respite. which is a free action, makes you immune to all cc, stops you from dying for the duration, and heals you when it's over

I didn't state you'd burst down the healer, at all. With that said, we've talked enough over the years that you know my mages are of the AoE DC variety. I don't think you need luck to target the protection domain cleric - an incendiary cloud between where he disappeared and his most damaged ally will do the trick nicely - it's pretty hard to heal your team reliably when you're blind. Meteor swarm is party friendly, and forces the protection cleric to AoE heal unless they're letting someone die, and once you see the heal go off on a teammate you have a targeting radius again.

But this is all moot, because it's a trash strategy (unless you're a trueflame, in which case, yes, fill the field with incendiary cloud). When I mage in mass PvP, I have three interchangeable top priorities.

1: Ward/protect from CC.
2: Dispel enemies that can't be targeted so the rest of my party can thrash them.
3: Switch between Nukes and Hard CC once 1 and 2 are fulfilled.

Group PvP doesn't happen in a vacuum. We disagree a lot, but you are a skilled player, and I feel you'll agree with these things. Healers will be nearby their damaged allies. A mage should be looking to neutralize the cleric first, protection domain or not, because they're the only ones that can reliably strip their wards and keep them from healing.

A mage is best suited to deal with "I can't click the thing." Always. A healer cleric that can't be targeted is a special kind of situation, because even though you can't click on him unless you pass the will save, it's easy to figure out where they are, or force a situation where you know where they are. A healer that doesn't stand next to wounded allies is useless- yes, they get some extended healing range on mass heal and healing circle, but that extended range isn't enough to protect them from disjunction blankets targeted at the ground.


As far as my sentiment about 40+ saves being false, it absolutely isn't. A number of builds with no divine levels can get +37 to two saving throws after gear with +0 in the relevant ability modifier- make it a +1, and drink a zoo pot for the appropriate stat, and you've hit 40 without even touching the save feats. That's an empirical fact, not a falsehood, and it's almost certainly less of a sacrifice than it takes to hit 53DC on P.Domain, which requires you to be a level 30 cleric with, at best, cross-class discipline and a 19 wisdom score to go with your 24 base charisma. Meaning your spell DC's suck and so do your number of bonus slots. (You're amazing at turning undead, at least!)

Havent played a cleric with P.domain but I fought one, once. After I won the will save check with my cot+spellcraft will save tier I just chain KDed the (probably pure) cleric. Dunno. Call it the grand battle of cheese if you wish. It wasnt very satisfying to win. My conclusion from that is that protection domain is pretty good if you know who you're fighting and have a general idea about their will save vs spells. But if you fail it then it can go pretty bad really fast and you've invested your entire build around this ability. my literal two cents.

Playing a protection domain healer path isn't as easy as it sounds. It's very easy to mess up the timings and the gameplay is slow-pacing. It's fine as it is, a strong support build as good as support bard.

I think GS is fine too. When someone skilled breaks a tactic you thought safe it often makes it look too easy, but it's a mater of you readjusting it and moving more.

It would completely ruin all current protection domain healers that a rebuild wouldn't even save.

Jack Oat wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 12:23 am Absolutely no buff should come to Greater Sanctuary. Counterplay against it via Mord's has always been an option, given that it's a saveless spell that renders you immune to direct attacks and that your opponent is required to cast True Seeing to pierce in order to know where to launch a Mord's. That is Fair And Balanced Gameplay at its peak.

Though I feel like I've said this all before. Mord's is a saveless breach area effect that you don't even need to see your target to use effectively. You can cast Mord's repeatedly. You cannot cast Greater Sanctuary again. Heck, we have people in this thread refer to their tactic of 'disjunction blankets.' I wouldn't call this 'fair and balanced gameplay at its peak.'

The more I think about this, the more I think the problem is the ability to spam saveless area breaching. This is exacerbated, of course, by the completely viable withdrawl techniques that Arcanists have that no one can do anything about. So maybe we don't need to do anything to greater sanctuary. As before, I would be completely happy with a 240.00 second Mord's timer.

This may be another thread entirely, but breaching in general has reached what I think is a kind of a problematic zenith, with some of the restructuring of the breach list, all the loot matrix items, and the ubiquitous wands of lesser spell breach. Except for the rare infini-caster, the breach wand always has more charges than you have spell slots.

In short, I don't feel like a lot of these things are true counter play, especially in these cases where the outcome is completely one-sided.

RedGiant wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 6:29 am

Jack Oat wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 12:23 am Absolutely no buff should come to Greater Sanctuary. Counterplay against it via Mord's has always been an option, given that it's a saveless spell that renders you immune to direct attacks and that your opponent is required to cast True Seeing to pierce in order to know where to launch a Mord's. That is Fair And Balanced Gameplay at its peak.

Though I feel like I've said this all before. Mord's is a saveless breach area effect that you don't even need to see your target to use effectively. You can cast Mord's repeatedly. You cannot cast Greater Sanctuary again. Heck, we have people in this thread refer to their tactic of 'disjunction blankets.' I wouldn't call this 'fair and balanced gameplay at its peak.'

The more I think about this, the more I think the problem is the ability to spam saveless area breaching. This is exacerbated, of course, by the completely viable withdrawl techniques that Arcanists have that no one can do anything about. So maybe we don't need to do anything to greater sanctuary. As before, I would be completely happy with a 240.00 second Mord's timer.

This may be another thread entirely, but breaching in general has reached what I think is a kind of a problematic zenith, with some of the restructuring of the breach list, all the loot matrix items, and the ubiquitous wands of lesser spell breach. Except for the rare infini-caster, the breach wand always has more charges than you have spell slots.

In short, I don't feel like a lot of these things are true counter play, especially in these cases where the outcome is completely one-sided.

I strongly disagree on a lot of this. A few things.

1) CL is a real factor as is abj feats. I have a mords wand on my rogue, it’s my baby and I love it. 6 charges I cry every time I have to use it. You don’t find them that often. It‘a also not the same as a lvl 30 wiz/Sorc with 3 feats in abj. Lesser breach wands are easy to make but that doesn’t concern me much as a mage or mundane relying on scrolls like Mestils, mind blank etc. It’s just basic counterplay.

2) Depending on build you don’t have more than a couple mords and spamming them all over the ground may be a bad idea when you need to hit a fully warded 26-30 CL cleric, sorc, wiz or a mix, maybe more than once. A sorc is an exception here, but a wiz may not have more than 2-3 prepared. On top of that, if you’re first 3-4 spells as a mage are mords in a fight, you’re probably in trouble.

3) Mords a 9th circle spell. I don’t see an incarnation of it other than what it is now that doesn’t make it an inferior choice to greater Dispel or spell breach if you nerf it at all. It should be powerful and scary especially from an abjurer.

4) Lastly, revealing the healer or Gsancd player isn’t a victory, it’s an opportunity to attack them. The battle is just begun. Gsanc is a total get out of jail free card unless countered, to heal if protec domain and become a huge factor in group PvP, or run away and live another day. The fact that this doesn’t work 100% of the time and the only counter requires a skillful play by the opposition is perfectly reasonable.

As with many things, the answer to a lot of this stuff isn’t, nerf it it’s scary. It’s, recognize the counter play and threat to a given strategy, try to counter it, or get ready to be countered and play your next card. Otherwise we can start talking about nerfing heal pots with a freq cap too, the mass heal spell, heal, harm and all the other things that can be a huge nuisance in a fight. Just my opinion.

All of what you say is perfectly reasonable, Jord, if GSanc could be used repeatedly....like its counter Mord's can....which it can't.