Arelith

I'm currently playing a wizard and I just wanted to offer my feedback around epic leveling.

I found the experience of epic leveling and adventuring with friends quite dull. Yes, I have cool abilities like dominates and phantasmals, but eventually these run out and some dungeons are very long and I find myself having to save most of my abilitlities until the end or start downing the wine to rest. Even then eventually it comes to a point where I'm just stood there like a spare part.


Usually on characters I spend 60 percent of my time grinding or dungeon crawling for loot. However by level 26, I decided not to bother leveling anymore and just to spend my time rping until I reached 30.

The infini spells did help with the earlier levels, however, damage wise in epic dungeons they are severely lacking. The only one I continue to use is blind, the others I find that they're not worth quick slotting.

Edit: just wanted to add in that I currently play a Shadow Mage.

When I play a mage (especially a necromancer) micro-ing 3 summons gives me enough challenge and "stuff to do" while I save most of my spells for tricky situations and bosses. I've never had an issue with my rest meter (but worth mentioning I play sorcs, not wizards) and depending on the dungeon, I find the pve experience on a mage VERY satisfying and allows a lot of different strategic approaches to every situation.

AstralUniverse wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 1:44 pm When I play a mage (especially a necromancer) micro-ing 3 summons gives me enough challenge and "stuff to do" while I save most of my spells for tricky situations and bosses. I've never had an issue with my rest meter (but worth mentioning I play sorcs, not wizards) and depending on the dungeon, I find the pve experience on a mage VERY satisfying and allows a lot of different strategic approaches to every situation.

I wonder if my experience is more down to my chosen schools of magic (illusion,enchant, conj) and the fact I want to be contributing more than just my summons/dominated creatures. Plus with new shadow plane dungeons, I'm technically more useless due to the spawns being immune to mind spell.

I do have to agree that using the player tool to control summons can be tricky at times. Most of the time I let my summons run freely.

Cram your entire spellbook with as many mass hastes and extended mass hastes as you can and be the looter. Sprinkle in a few concealments and a protection from spells and everyone will love you. You'll keep busy gathering for the most part. As a bonus you'll finish the dungeons much quicker.

It may not seem like a big contribution but it definitely is.

Edit: also I'll add that carrying some gust of wind wands, darkness wands, and other gadgets helps immensely with emergency counterplay in some dungeons. Or at least in the UD ones.

The biggest bonus in my opinion is that you can spend your downtime roleplaying while everyone fights to keep a conversation going.

Purplemyst wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 2:00 pm

AstralUniverse wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 1:44 pm When I play a mage (especially a necromancer) micro-ing 3 summons gives me enough challenge and "stuff to do" while I save most of my spells for tricky situations and bosses. I've never had an issue with my rest meter (but worth mentioning I play sorcs, not wizards) and depending on the dungeon, I find the pve experience on a mage VERY satisfying and allows a lot of different strategic approaches to every situation.

I wonder if my experience is more down to my chosen schools of magic (illusion,enchant, conj) and the fact I want to be contributing more than just my summons/dominated creatures. Plus with new shadow plane dungeons, I'm technically more useless due to the spawns being immune to mind spell.

I think the schools are fine. As a shadowmage I'd probably go the necromancy route and pick epic mummy dust instead of conjuration, but conjuration is alright for pve too. Picking the right dungeons to suit your character's strength and not punish them hard for their weaknesses is also a thing. It's a trail and error thing. As a wizard you get the best spells selection so its doable.

Purplemyst wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 2:00 pm I do have to agree that using the player tool to control summons can be tricky at times. Most of the time I let my summons run freely.

You should practice the player tool, honestly. Your knowledge of the class, it's possible strategies and the fun stuff you can do will simply increase a lot with your practice of that tool. I think the answer to your feedback lays there.

Mage, otherwise known as "Mass Haste: The Class" can be a harder to milk contributions out of in higher end/end game content. But things you can do, other then living up to your class name of mass haste are,

1. Using gated summons/edk/black blades to burst damage/draw aggro away from party. Stealth and black blade is amazing, and I have used it to clear the final room in Maur, after party wiped due to early mistake.

2. Provide buffs like mindblank, protection vs spells, stoneskin, and especially imp invis if they cannot provide them themselves. And even if they can, you casting them saves them coin, especially on a longer dungeon.

3. Lesser spell breaches, either cast or off a wand to get rid of damage shields on enemies.

4. Gust of wind deals with cloud spells, and if you handle it, your melee companions dont need to waste the action.

5. I cannot off the top of my head remember if there are higher end bosses or spawns that counterspelling is actually useful against, but if there is, then you can counterspell to protect your party.

6. You can burn through heal kits to protect party members, so they can keep fighting instead of going flatfooted to use heal kits.

7. In a smaller party where a summon will not get in the way, you can use the command companion tool to draw aggro off the party, or help support taking out important npc threats.

Also, consider if having 3 undead, or an elemental summon out will actually contribute to the group, or if they will get in the way, preventing access to, or from combat, or making it harder to move around in general. There are few deaths more frustrating, then those suffered because mass of summons prevents movement, or alternatively, because a summon draws attention before you are ready. Very often you are better off without them, and summons if used, are best left to short term, situational burst summons.

Thanks for tips all.

I've found a lot of them quite useful.

TBH.

I still use colour spray in almost all the epic dungeons there is almost always something that isn't immune to it and you can stun lock them out of a fight while the party handles the other mobs.

chris a gogo wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 5:28 pm TBH.

I still use colour spray in almost all the epic dungeons there is almost always something that isn't immune to it and you can stun lock them out of a fight while the party handles the other mobs.

This is very useful if you've mind blanked your other party members. Spam color spray, the DC is high enough to catch a lot of mobs even in epics, and especially if you cast it a lot. The resulting stun is actually helpful.

Mages are pretty strong.

They are not consistently strong like most other classes. Melees can just keep attacking, archers shooting. Mages are limited with their spells slots. With that said, when you commit to using your spell slots you will generally outperform pretty much any other class.

For example, a mage can solo the end room of the Titan's Ascent, and it is not that hard. You get EDK out, buff it with concealmente, con, dex, str. And then you have as many IGMS Horrid Wiltings and similar spells prepared, maybe a Gate or Elemental to clean it up, but you will solo it without that much effort.

That is nigh impossible for a melee class to do. They will just get swarmed and even if they are only high on 20s (which they won't be on that boss) they will not be able to kill everything before they are killed, or without using a ton of Heal Potions.

When you are in a party, yes. Your role will be mostly support. You will provide Mass Hastes, Mind Blanks, you will occasionally breach a target. But if things start to go wrong you can very quickly pull out the big spells and turn the tide by yourself.

I pretty much only want to play casters now. They are very strong and able to solo most PvE content with ease once you know how to play them. Even my current melee character is a caster, because casters can even do melee better than melee classes can. If I make an archer, they will probably be a caster too. They are just that good. Wizards have spells for any situation and if they go Spellsword they can get way more AC than any of the melee classes. Sorcerers got spell slots for days and have good synergy with paladin/blackguard dip for some of the best saves and decent AC. Clerics are very strong in PVP and the best support class. Druids can summon an army of animals, become a monolithic elemental, or even a dragon and just solo anything on easy mode. I'll probably try Favored Soul on my next character as I hear good things about them.

NPC Logger Number 2 wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 11:03 pm because casters can even do melee better than melee classes can.

Huh?

Aardra wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 11:38 pm

NPC Logger Number 2 wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 11:03 pm because casters can even do melee better than melee classes can.

Huh?

Spellswords, battle clerics, and druids can all out-perform any mundane melee class in PVE and probably PVP too.

NPC Logger Number 2 wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 12:06 am

Aardra wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 11:38 pm

NPC Logger Number 2 wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 11:03 pm because casters can even do melee better than melee classes can.

Huh?

Spellswords, battle clerics, and druids can all out-perform any mundane melee class in PVE and probably PVP too.

Oh. Well, druids outperform everyone on PvE.

NPC Logger Number 2 wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 12:06 am

Aardra wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 11:38 pm

NPC Logger Number 2 wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 11:03 pm because casters can even do melee better than melee classes can.

Huh?

Spellswords, battle clerics, and druids can all out-perform any mundane melee class in PVE and probably PVP too.

This is a very brave statement.

AstralUniverse wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 1:34 am This is a very brave statement.

Show me a mundane melee build that solos places like Red Dragon Island or Titan's Ascent without chugging copious amounts of healing potions and using premonition scrolls.

NPC Logger Number 2 wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 3:36 am

AstralUniverse wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 1:34 am This is a very brave statement.

Show me a mundane melee build that solos places like Red Dragon Island or Titan's Ascent without chugging copious amounts of healing potions and using premonition scrolls.

Try matching a barbarian with 55AB, 6APR, dish out 50 to 70dmg before crit.
I've tried going for the Auril Temple's Dragon, i just drink a true strike potion and i can finish it in 2 gulps if i manage to proc several critical.
That was before i rolled him last year, i think.

You will have enough HP to tank 2 round, even if i drink the potion in front of him.

AC wise, usually between 45 to 55 [ Depend if i go full offensive or defensive ] And there's improved invisibility concealment.

NPC Logger Number 2 wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 3:36 am

AstralUniverse wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 1:34 am This is a very brave statement.

Show me a mundane melee build that solos places like Red Dragon Island or Titan's Ascent without chugging copious amounts of healing potions and using premonition scrolls.

But why would any character be able to just right click an epic boss to death effortlessly (although my monk can, and this barb build above seems to)? This argument I invalid. Casters have easier life in soloing simply because their summons have DR. They still kill things incredibly slow without help and also who cares about soloing? your previous argument was about pve in general and "probably pvp too" which is, I'm sorry to say, complete none-sense. Especially if we include the "casters do better in melee than melee". Please...

When I say mundane build I definitely include fighters with 80 lore and Cot builds with divine might/shield and none-caster bards and bardadins. These classes/builds are all in great place right now, soloing included btw.

On top of all that, when you couple any of these mundane builds with a caster they will rekt pve much more consistently and reliably than a party of 2, or make it even 3 casters. Soloing is just one scenario out of many.

Trying to "solve" the PvE content in order to see what build is good enough might not be the best approach as a dynamic environment needs to be considered here.

There have been both some changes in PC classes as well as tweaks in monster spawns quite recently.
A lot of what applied by the end of last year now doesn't and this will likely keep changing even more in the future.
Also, new areas present new challenges as well.

NPC Logger Number 2 wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 3:36 am

AstralUniverse wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 1:34 am This is a very brave statement.

Show me a mundane melee build that solos places like Red Dragon Island or Titan's Ascent without chugging copious amounts of healing potions and using premonition scrolls.

26 Ranger 4 Monk, Dex based

Eh, in the words of "Treatmonk's Guide to Wizards" (worth a read, btw), the best way to play a mage is to summon, buff, and occasionally battlefield control as needed.

If you load up on blaster and "save or die" spells, you're being inefficient and are going to blow your load fast (and pointlessly).

Eh, in the words of "Treatmonk's Guide to Wizards" (worth a read, btw), the best way to play a mage is to summon, buff, and occasionally battlefield control as needed.

If you load up on blaster and "save or die" spells, you're being inefficient and are going to blow your load fast (and pointlessly). Wizards are damned OP if you use them right, able to solo almost everything while almost everybody else cannot. (Summons seriously need nerfed.)

Playing rogues and warriors is goddamned hard mode due to the ridiiculousness of caster upgrades now.

Algol wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 6:13 am 26 Ranger 4 Monk, Dex based

Having one, I can say, they do not. Damage too smol, no epic dodge, gets ripped apart easily. (though RDI isn't hard by any means... Maur on the other hand...)

That's weird, even on builds with less way less AC than a ranger/monk i never had issues with tanking maurs and hitting them reliably. Tho I used a race with +4 ac vs giants (gnomes FTW) so keep that in mind.

Algol wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 6:13 am 26 Ranger 4 Monk, Dex based

Its pretty good. And if damage is a problem, try 21 ranger, 6 fighter, 3 monk instead. Either of them should handle Maurs just fine (maybe not solo the entire place though) with that 60+ ac and 51 ab before improved expertise.

AstralUniverse wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 6:27 am

Algol wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 6:13 am 26 Ranger 4 Monk, Dex based

Its pretty good. And if damage is a problem, try 21 ranger, 6 fighter, 3 monk instead. Either of them should handle Maurs just fine (maybe not solo the entire place though) with that 60+ ac and 51 ab before improved expertise.

This build is viable but take into consideration on dispelling roll.
Whether you want more damage vs more resistant to dispel unless you are negative modifer wisdom but it's not likely since there's a monk sub class there.
You can't really have both ways.