Arelith

I've long been a bit puzzled by the state of the 'infinite songs per day' from the Master Harper class. I recognise there may be camp that 'you do not need more than allotted songs', but one can readily use many songs by cursing every group or by not taking lasting inspiration.

Harpers are semi-secret and so I'd expect their abilities to be very subtle (and indeed they are for other harper classes), especially given that being 'found out' as a harper has severe IC consequences, but this makes 'infinite songs per day' seem odd. Basically, the options are:

1. Don't ever use more songs than a bard should have
2. Use more songs than bards should have

(A) basically mean that the ability is useless and should just be removed. That leaves (B), and my issue here is that many people (consciously or unconsciously) will immediately OOC conclude that the character is a harper and therefore be much more suspicious. Maybe they still play by the rules and say nothing and treat exactly the same. Maybe they kind-of play by the rule and launch in in-character investigation, that they otherwise wouldn't have done. Maybe they don't play nice and just let it slip in chat that must be a harper and the rumour spreads, despite being based on OCC info. Problem is that it only requires a single person doing any of the latter to expose the harper.

I could imagine several solutions to avoid this being an issue (eg introducing an infinite cast as an epic feat for generic bards, replace it with lasting inspiration or another more subtle perk).

Now, for discussion: is this an intended design choice?

Having played one, I did keep track of how many songs I was using when with any given group, but the unlimited use meant that I could be more consistent with my songs, without having to worry about running out. I was never holding those last two in reserve, just in case. Even if I went over by one or two songs, nobody would really notice, since they'd have no reason to be counting songs unless they suspected. And then, they wouldn't know exactly how many Bard levels I had or whether I'd taken Extra Music. So, in a pinch, it allowed me to pop out those last few uses when needed and then say, "Hey guys, I need a breather."

It's also a huge boost when soloing, since you can curse everything and it's mother, and you don't have to rest as often if you're not consistently traveling with the same people. It's definitely more of a QoL thing, since regular Bards have the means to work around the limit, but it is very nice to have. You just have to think about what you're doing and mitigate your risk.

The same thing happens with Assassins and Death Attack but I’d argue it’s worse. The standard reply is, “I recognize that attack, you’re no ordinary rogue.” They know this based off the floating text? Cool, cool cool.

Quidix, you pose an interesting question. One I have thought about before.

Coming at it from a purely RP perspective, how would anyone know exactly how many songs a bard is supposed to have? I haven't found any lore that points to this, unlike spell casting. To my knowledge the Bard Song doesn't function like a spell in RP terms as it's a Supernatural ability and not a Spell-Like ability.

Looking over what I could find for Harpers, there is nothing in the Lore that shows infinite casting is purely a Harper trait. Sure, on Arelith we all know that it is a mechanical trait of a Master Harper. And frankly if someone wants to deduce your class based on OOC knowledge, that's fine, we all do it. Now if they want to spoil your fun for their own gain, not much that can be done anyways, except maybe try and turn it against them? Use that Harper gang of yours to salt their name and protect one another.

Personally I think the ability works fine and the RM's post hits the nail on the head as far as how and when to use the song. Use the song wisely and manage your rest the same way a Wizard needs to for their spells and fake taking a rest if you need to. Since the Z's no longer appear above your head when you rest there's no way of knowing if the character is lying or not, and even if they are, it's a Bard and they are the masters of deception.

The Rambling Midget wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:03 pm Even if I went over by one or two songs, nobody would really notice, since they'd have no reason to be counting songs unless they suspected. And then, they wouldn't know exactly how many Bard levels I had or whether I'd taken Extra Music.

Pretty much this.
I think Harper Master is probably the easiest of the harper paths to conceal. Imagine you roll 1 vs fear as a paragon. lol.

Claim to be a blackguard.

Not trying to sidetrack this conversation too much, but I'd really like for bards to be able to dispel their song off themselves or others. It's a pain with lasting inspiration to keep everyone's song buffs synchronized. I'd love to be able to dispel my songs off of them or even myself. Or at least let me overlap my existing song duration.

Preytoria wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:32 pm Not trying to sidetrack this conversation too much, but I'd really like for bards to be able to dispel their song off themselves or others. It's a pain with lasting inspiration to keep everyone's song buffs synchronized. I'd love to be able to dispel my songs off of them or even myself. Or at least let me overlap my existing song duration.

I suggested that several months ago, but I was met with "The suggestion box is currently closed" which is entirely understandable. I do hope it's on the radar, although it could be hard/impossible to code without having the bonuses doubled because afaik bard song is still hard coded in nwn, or it could also be just a bad idea due to reasons I dont see atm. Sorry for the derail too.

This is an issue with widely known mechanics is that for players often will claim they know your class (and persecute you on it) solely by its mechanics. Should you know that a harper paragon is that class because he failed a fear save? NO. Should your character recognize a master harper because he can use song infinitely? NO. This bleeds into when Hexblades were outed because their swords were glowy. I would report these instances to the DMs, and move on. Individuals that want to "win" by outing your class through mechanics their character shouldn't or wouldn't recognize aren't worth your time as a roleplayer.

Ork wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:00 pm This is an issue with widely known mechanics is that for players often will claim they know your class (and persecute you on it) solely by its mechanics. Should you know that a harper paragon is that class because he failed a fear save? NO. Should your character recognize a master harper because he can use song infinitely? NO. This bleeds into when Hexblades were outed because their swords were glowy. I would report these instances to the DMs, and move on. Individuals that want to "win" by outing your class through mechanics their character shouldn't or wouldn't recognize aren't worth your time as a roleplayer.

All of this.

Ork really hit the nail on the head here.

I agree with Ork here, but being outted as a Harper or an Assassin has ramifications that DM’s can’t fix

You're right. I wish there was an easier answer to when you're outed unfairly. I've found that people will play ball if they're interested in collaborative story. There's ways you can dismiss these accusations through roleplay, but that meta-stain might be with you always.

First off one should not Metagame these mechanics just like Ork said. Second off, my Master Harper character uses Infinite Songs liberally and really once you get to around 20-30 uses of it, no one is counting anymore. So once you are at Epics, no one is ever going to notice that you've gone past your uses of the song unless you just NEVER take a break to rest.

One last thing. I made a suggestion, which was actually approved and moved to the "pending" folder, that if you take Lasting Inspiration, you should be given a toggle that lets you choose your length of your song - normal vs. lengthened. This way, you can spam curse song to get that extra damage in on epicly long fights, but also have a nice long lasting bard song for regular use. It makes the tactics a little more interesting. Hopefully this suggestion will get implemented at some point in the future, and it will make Master Harpers even more versatile.

I do very much agree with Ork and good points brought up.

The last thing I'll say is: I think it's better to do small mechanical tweaks to avoid OOC metagaming risks than relying on DMs / policing. The latter takes a lot more time, and ultimately some will always slip through the cracks.

Maladus wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:55 pm I agree with Ork here, but being outted as a Harper or an Assassin has ramifications that DM’s can’t fix

Yeah and an outing can be forever. A very annoying recurring problem I've had with Arelith is other characters will have "heard a rumor" about someone who's been outed as a secretive class even if they probably never actually received that info IG (and sometimes even if the outing was before the character's time.) But it's really difficult to prove they didn't, as plausible deniability is easily abused.

This is really what it's about. People often will play ball. It takes one that wont. But I was under the impression we're alright on that department and that harpers arent being exposed left and right?

The thing is once you're out oocly, it's mostly just a matter of time. The seed has been seeded in their heads.

There will always be ways to pick up harpers oocly. That's always been the main drawback of the class, imo.