Race Rotations

[Farlius]

Currently, besides the tentative hope of something special, there is little to encourage people to roll a very ancient character they have become attached to at the hip.

To this end I propose the following change to existing systems:
1) Time played (Actually active and online on the server) gradually increases an invisible % chance towards a greater, this is not known to a player.

2) Have each unique race that is within the greater catagory use an invisible quota, once this max is reached a flag for rotation is made, allowing assessment on whether it should be moved back to a 5% reward.

The idea is to reward players for actively playing a character but not overly so, and still maintain a stable population on any one of the rarer races.

[Gouge Away]

It's a perfectly valid idea but I do suspect that players of ancient characters simply aren't the kind of folks tempted by the chance to play a weird and different race. For one thing, they would have had plenty of opportunity to go for a 5% special request race until that was removed and could have had a shot at playing almost anything they wanted.

I know it's a foreign concept to most of us (myself included) who have vaults full of alts but there are players who have one character and that's it and they have no interest in ever playing anything else. Certainly the existing rewards, which are almost all about playing increasingly oddball races who'd be at odds with surface society, aren't doing it for them.

If that's how they want to play I say let and let live myself, but if they're seen as an issue maybe the question should be posed, "what would entice you to roll your decade-old character for something new?" Because I really don't think giving them another 5% shot at a vampire or minotaur is going to do it and maybe that would require a whole different kind of reward.

[Hazard]

There is absolutely no reason (or incentive) for me to ever roll a character that required a greater/major reward to create, because chances are I will get a normal which can only be used for -ecl.

[Royal Blood]

I think Arelith would have a healthier RP scene if there was better motivation from the player base to roll characters and move on. That's my personal opinion though but I mean imagine like there are some characters that were here when I started and are still here. How many times do you re meet these characters on your new characters and it's kind of weird or difficult maybe?

Again though I get this is super personal but I'd really argue it's healthy and helps develope a more ... How to say like detachment from you IRL to your character. That doesn't make the character less fun it just means you as a player have become more distinct and are maybe comfortable to allow things to happen to that character because it's no longer a super super big time investment.

Idk about the reward system I'd like to play something super unique but I also understand it's important to keep these things unique. One server I like went back to everyone was some sort of crazy half drow dragon celestial hybrid and it was a huge turn off to me personally. That crazy unique stuff I think ought to stay that way.

I like the idea, sort of, of time played contributing to a higher reward chance but idk if it's practical and might result in greater disappointment when one doesn't get a reward or long long drawn out characters.

I'm also not sure there is anyway to make rolling look good to people who have strong personal connections to character. That's just a decision the player needs to come to OOC and again I'd just say that I think it's super healthy to be able to make that decision and move on

[Hazard]

It goes both ways. I have the opposite opinion, in that I think it is unhealthy that so many characters are grinded up so quickly, only to be instantly deleted in the hopes of farming rewards. It makes it a difficult setting to form connections with, plots, politics, pretty much any sort of RP besides day-to-day interactions on a casual level, because MOST character I run into seem to vanish entirely the moment they hit level 26-30.

I prefer to play a character for medium length of time (2-4 years). That's what I consider medium. Short would be 1-2 years, but that is not what I am talking about above, where characters tend to last only days, weeks and rarely months.

[Royal Blood]

It goes both ways. I have the opposite opinion, in that I think it is unhealthy that so many characters are grinded up so quickly, only to be instantly deleted in the hopes of farming rewards. It makes it a difficult setting to form connections with, plots, politics, pretty much any sort of RP besides day-to-day interactions on a casual level, because MOST character I run into seem to vanish entirely the moment they hit level 26-30.

I prefer to play a character for medium length of time (2-4 years). That's what I consider medium. Short would be 1-2 years, but that is not what I am talking about above, where characters tend to last only days, weeks and rarely months.

Well I agree with that turn over can be quick. I think a good length is like 4-6 months if you are playing like super actively. That is a ton of time but that's all personal prefernce but yeah I agree that high of turn over is annoying

[Hazard]

It doesn't help that reward races are mechanically more powerful too, too.
Especially when building for certain things.

I don't want people to lose what they already have, but in the future I'd like to see more reward races that don't offer anything more powerful than a human. Humans being the best standard race, already.

[Gouge Away]

I agree rapid turnover is an issue too, often just when you're getting to know someone they're gone. I think it makes it harder to make connections some times. But I really don't want to tell anyone when to delete whether they play characters a short or long time-- it's not my place and it's not fair for me to do so.

I do think enhanced standard races might be an attractive option though since most rewards seem geared towards underdarkers or well-concealed evil. I think the majority of them can't walk around Cordor or Bendir or have to hide who they are if they do. Maybe we need awards that entice the die-hard Cordor political junkie or Brog dwarf to give up their epic and play a new character in the setting they like?

I myself would be much more interested in a human who was super-strong over a minotaur or ogre as they could actually operate in the open on the surface, for example. Not even talking Genasi or Tiefling or anything, just a regular human or hin who's a bit of a superhero.

[The GrumpyCat]

Again though I get this is super personal but I'd really argue it's healthy and helps develope a more ... How to say like detachment from you IRL to your character. That doesn't make the character less fun it just means you as a player have become more distinct and are maybe comfortable to allow things to happen to that character because it's no longer a super super big time investment.

Must admit, I'm in a similar camp myself. My pc turnover is about 6-9 months, and I find that about right. That said, everyone has their own play style, and it's not fair to enforce that. So hopefully a good reward system works to encourage it instead, hopefully.

I myself would be much more interested in a human who was super-strong over a minotaur or ogre as they could actually operate in the open on the surface, for example. Not even talking Genasi or Tiefling or anything, just a regular human or hin who's a bit of a superhero.

I'm certainly not against some options that are not race based (don't hold your breath though, this is probably a long time away) but I want it to hold some more rp meaning than 'Oh ok have a +4 to 'xxx''

[Gouge Away]

Honestly- and maybe it's just me here- I could do a lot RP-wise with the freedom a generic ability bonus gives you, maybe even more than playing a race or planetouched that already has a prefab background. I really wouldn't discount the story potential "freakishly smart but otherwise normal human" could have in the hands of someone who knows what to do with it.

[Drowble Oh Seven]

Honestly- and maybe it's just me here- I could do a lot RP-wise with the freedom a generic ability bonus gives you, maybe even more than playing a race or planetouched that already has a prefab background. I really wouldn't discount the story potential "freakishly smart but otherwise normal human" could have in the hands of someone who knows what to do with it.

I'm not trying to be snide here; but I don't really feel there's anything stopping people doing this without a gift. A few more points in INT, the intelligence stat bonus taken on creation, and really play up that aspect of the character. I'd love to see Arelith's very own Sherlock Holmes walking about. There's far stranger things out there then being abnormally clever. I doubt there would be be any push back at all from other players for running with that element of the concept.

I definitely feel where you're coming from on the perspective of comparatively limited options for surface reward options, mind.

As an aside, my (historically) favourite use of a 5% was someone who had a mirror that let them change appearance. That's it. That's all. Disguise shenanigans were had.

[Gouge Away]

I disagree, as being able to start a base race with much higher ability than stock can attain would *feel* different. Every human wizard has 19 or 20 int with gifts at the outset to start with. I can claim to be smarter than the rest, but it's not going to be true or evident from things like spell DCs and deep imaskari or sun elves will always have the edge.

So, can I do this already? Sure. I guess. Not really, but yeah, kind of.

But we're also talking about what will be incentive for epics to roll, and for me it would be playing a hin who has the edge over other hin by being able to have more strength or intelligence than you can get normally. It's not just about being the strongest or smartest, that also opens up some class combos too (like say, a duergar who actually had normal charisma so they could play a warlock.) This is more interesting to me (where I am in my thinking right now, at least) than playing a planetouched or vampire or something, and this might entice someone who's a very long time epic to retire and play something new. I think a lot of those players are really entrenched in a particular race or settlement or faction and being able to play the "chosen one" of that group is what's going to get them rolling, not dangling the potential of playing a very difficult to RP underdark race. Though admittedly getting them to roll the superhero eventually would be difficult too!

It's just a tossed out notion anyway-- I'm not going to spend Saturday night fighting over it. We're both right.

[Drowble Oh Seven]

That's fair. I hadn't really considered using it to balance out the stat penalty of a race to play something that'd normally be a mechanical headache. It's more that stacking stat increases further scares me. I, personally, wouldn't feel that an extra +2 on my character sheet impedes the concept - But, hey, to each their own. I kind-of dragged off from OP's initial topic in any case.

I think you had the right of it in your early post. The people who are playing really long-term characters aren't necessarily going to be hugely moved by incentive. They're playing those PCs because, by and large, they want to play those PCs. And that's alright, I feel. There's a fairly large transient adventurer population about. I quite like having a few fixtures floating about here and there that can regale the rest of us fresh meat on the good old days.

[Jagel]

Opening even stronger gifts for major awards would lead to a succesful 5 % epic sacrifice being the new endgame and risk incentivising grinding even more. Some people would not use this to ease the headache of akward builds but to min-max even more.

I understand your reasoning but I think the downside is severe.

[AstralUniverse]

I'm certainly not against some options that are not race based (don't hold your breath though, this is probably a long time away) but I want it to hold some more rp meaning than 'Oh ok have a +4 to 'xxx''

Such items should come with a forced description line like an outcast tag and then it's interesting and means the items come with an RP toll on top of the greater/normal/whatever award.

[ReverentBlade]

Aint no reward in the world that would entice me to roll a PC I'm still having fun on.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Epic Rewards currently do incentivize turn over what so ever. I've seen characters in positions of faction influence for literal in-game decades. Epic Rewards just offer an easy way for characters to shrug if a character isn't fun, so they can figure out something new. What we *want* to be targeting are epics who have been epics, who're now on their 6th DM server-side event, who've been "in the in" for years, etc.

The Gift System hasn't kept the pace, and we're definitely wandering back to a new kind of Wandering Epic Syndrome - where players/characters are not relinquishing factional/roleplay power because that has become the new "getting to 30."

DMs should be encouraging fresh blood.

[Drowboy]

That's straight up not going to be a problem that gets addressed without rotating out players, which isn't something that really happens anymore. Certainly not to the degree it did back in NWN's heyday.

You give dms unilateral ability to, what, remove people from faction placements and settlement leadership?

One, gross, two, open to corruption in a way that should be obvious. Not that it would happen, but the idea would be there and basically non-removable.

Three: You remove a character but not a player, who has friends and plays-withs and, yes, now has to make some sort of new character, but, frankly, the player knows the server fairly well, boosts up to epic, and gets back in with buds again.

This is not something that's solvable without a big pile of restrictions on when you can play with who, depending on faction, settlement, etc etc etc, and that's not sustainable.

[The GrumpyCat]

Ok so the award system is being looked at. I can't say more than that - but it's happening. Slowly but surely it is happening.

And Drowboy is right in this case.

Don't get me wrong- I do think that the award system (or an award system) does /help/ and that it encourages rolling. But it by no means enforces it.

Should we enforce it?

I mean - sometimes I think we should. But even if we do - as he put in - it won't neccesarly 'solve' all the issues linked to that and more to the point, it would really upset quite a few players. There are some people who will just never let go of their characters, and forcing them to will probably end badly.

[Gouge Away]

This might also just take a different perspective. Yes, there are long term players who may stay past their expiration date but Arelith is very welcoming to new blood and with the steady XP gain the writ system allows it is possible to make a new character today that could be an epic power player in six months. The power imbalance between a character who's been around one year and ten years isn't insurmountable. I'd be for term limits for leaders and maybe even factions, but Arelith's "wandering epics" problem isn't nearly as bad as elsewhere in the NWN world.

I do get the frustration of course, especially when these characters who never go away are gatekeepers to settlements/groups/racial RP and you keep butting up against their ideas of how things have to be when you play new and different characters, but it's also easy to overstate the problem.

[Glowing Mushroom]

The reward system works for what it is. However, it should do a better job of rewarding players for their RP and contributions.

Players who put forth stunning storytelling talents, lead factions, create lore, and move the world along, should not have to risk a Normal reward when powergrinders can burn through characters until they get what they want. I am consistently impressed with the RP I see across Arelith from all of the players and getting to know them IC and OOCly. But it is unfortunate that they should not be guaranteed a well earned reward of their choice when the time comes for them to roll.

Especially when it comes to gold. Gold pieces in the bank increasing your percentile chance of a greater reward is a fine, albeit extremely limiting concept. Many of the characters I've interacted with take a stance in RP against wealth and against gold. So for this RP decision, should they choose to roll, their chances are lower because of their RP. I do not believe that rewards should be tied to exorbitant levels of character wealth in order to increase your chances.

I am very glad to read that the reward system is being looked at. And I truly hope that it is improved to deal more with time played and stories told - A system that rewards RP, and not gold or powergrinding.

[Xerah]

Many of the characters I've interacted with take a stance in RP against wealth and against gold.

I've never heard of someone who would RP against wealth and against gold (do they just dump it in the garbage?), but I guess it's possible. The big reason this exists is so people don't pass their gold to someone else before rolling.

I've personally rolled like 6 characters above 21, which gave me 2 greater and 4 normals, but maybe half had over a million gold.

[LichBait]

Never had more than a normal myself, and I've rolled 7 characters with closer to a million than not. My luck is kind of bad though in general, heh.

The system as it is now incentivizes grinding and fast turnover. However, nothing that isn't automated will be a good idea to implement.

[Glowing Mushroom]

Many of the characters I've interacted with take a stance in RP against wealth and against gold.

I've never heard of someone who would RP against wealth and against gold (do they just dump it in the garbage?), but I guess it's possible. The big reason this exists is so people don't pass their gold to someone else before rolling.

I've personally rolled like 6 characters above 21, which gave me 2 greater and 4 normals, but maybe half had over a million gold.

There are characters in the Grove who want nothing to do with gold. They hover around 20k in their bank.

Either way, grinding for gold shouldn't be a requirement for rewards that have to do with RP, though I certainly understand the ideal behind wanting to prevent the gold from getting transferred around.

[Hazard]

Many of the characters I've interacted with take a stance in RP against wealth and against gold.

I've never heard of someone who would RP against wealth and against gold (do they just dump it in the garbage?), but I guess it's possible. The big reason this exists is so people don't pass their gold to someone else before rolling.

I've personally rolled like 6 characters above 21, which gave me 2 greater and 4 normals, but maybe half had over a million gold.

I am one of these mythical creatures. My firbolg refuses to greedily hoard gold and will begin giving out all sorts of gifts if their bank account has more than a little safety net in it.