Arelith

With the recent update to nobility, I expect some have questions, or are questioning what, if anything, this adds to settlement politics. I'm going to elaborate a little here, and state what else is planned.

So, first off, much like the UK Prime Minister can nominate Lords on the 'Honors List' now settlement leaders can appoint 'Landed Nobility'

Unlike regular noble PCs (Who are assumed to have aristocratic family), these nobles actually have titles within their native settlement. What those titles are? That is up to yourselves, to player decisions. Cordor might go with 'traditional' noble titles, Devils Table might want to lean on drow lore, Bendir might want to use things like 'Warden of the Upper Shyr' - it's totally your own choice.

Elected leaders, now have a new aspect of their leadership. Nobles are influential (extra votes) and rich. Granting titles are a way to reward those who supported them, and removing them? A way to punish a noble who backed the wrong horse...

Given the limits on how many may be granted or removed in each election cycle, they cannot immediately install their own people, and given the degree of legal immunity enjoyed by nobles may well end up with near equal political enemies within their own city.

What to the regular populace stand to gain from a system of nobility? On the surface, absolutely nothing. These are individuals who claim a portion of their taxes for no other reason than their position of privilege, who enjoy immunity that they do not, and have a greater say in choosing their leaders. All very much like feudal reality; it simply is not fair.

However, any group having installed it's own Landed noble in a settlement would have a powerful ally...

As for the nobles themselves? If they don't want to be hated, and removed from title and estate they're going to need to manage that PR; spread that gold around, encourage loyalty from the populace and ensure they don't sit on big estates without doing anything for their people. Their whole position will rely on having favourable leaders, and thus, voters.

We will of course be looking at more estates for other settlements in the future, in the new (as of yet sealed) city I have already Myon two, simply amazing estates.
Remember two that ANY noble (minor noble/reward nobles can purchase estates)

We are also still working on adding more noble only henchmen, akin to Darrowdeep.

Finally, do keep in mind that any settlement can reject this system entirely. A leader could perfectly well run for election on an anti-atristrocratic platform - appointing no new nobles, and working towards the removal of those that already exist. This is entirely in the hands of the players.

Question: These "Landed Nobles", do they have to own one of the Noble estates to be given one of the four positions?

Nobility reward = taken as a reward
Landed Noble = given by settlement leader and can be taken away 1 per year by settlement leader (max 4 per settlement)
Minor Noble = given by Landed Noble IF they own a noble estate (max 4 per estate)

This is awesome!

Some ideas for the future:

- assassinating nobles via Assassin Contracts could trigger leadership challenges, or do something with their 5% tax revenue
- Nobles can vote on a "civil war / insurrection" mechanic
- a removed Noble can retain a degrading bit of influence/tax revenue for 1 in-game year, before their daddy's money is all gone

I am very interested to see what this "rewards" are that Nobles can give out to their retinue. Very exciting!

I hope players use this and don't go all 20th C on me.

How does Epic Reputation figure into this?

Xerah wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:02 pm Minor Noble = given by Landed Noble IF they own a noble estate (max 4 per estate)

Does that mean only Cordor and Anundor will have the Landed Noble appointed minor nobles since they're the only ones with noble housing (until more estates are released)?

Another quick question.

If the settlement got 10,000,000 in a year and taxed at 10% that'd be 1,000,000 in tax revenue and 5% of that would be 50,000...

Is the 5% of tax revenue per each noble (getting 50K each) or do they share a pool (getting 12,500 each)?

Nevrus wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:47 pm How does Epic Reputation figure into this?

I would like to know this, too.

Very cool.

Are noble-reward nobles also able to award minor nobility if they own an estate?

Are noble-gift nobles going to get any new bonuses? Right now all they get is +2 appraise/persuade, 3 level 20ish retainers (1 of which has only 6 useful spells and bumrushes with a staff, another which has low AB and APR, and the third which is a solid tank; which you can't use until epic levels; if you happen to be a citizen of the right settlement; but more to come); recently the ability to join the RH if you're LG/NG/LN/TN and now a few exclusive houses that are in Cordor (and soon neo-guld) whenever their current occupants are done.

I would recommend a free Gift of Wealth; given their status (which would not be given to the minor nobles); or free points in Ride since nobles often learned to ride horses. After all you are using a reward!

Otherwise why not move noble to a minor gift rather than an award?

WanderingPoet wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:57 pmOtherwise why not move noble to a minor gift rather than an award?

Population control.

While I like the system, my main worry is that this further disbalance the things in favor of players/factions in the settlement, who already are tighty holding power and difficult to push off. Like making gatekeeping things even more possible and playing favorites.

Will there be any means to make sure this wont be abused OOC?

Petrifictus wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:16 am While I like the system, my main worry is that this further disbalance the things in favor of players/factions in the settlement, who already are tighty holding power and difficult to push off. Like making gatekeeping things even more possible and playing favorites.

So like... politics?

Petrifictus wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:16 am While I like the system, my main worry is that this further disbalance the things in favor of players/factions in the settlement, who already are tighty holding power and difficult to push off. Like making gatekeeping things even more possible and playing favorites.

Will there be any means to make sure this wont be abused OOC?

I sorta feel this too?

But what's the alternative? Not implementing new systems out of fear of cliques? I think the possibility of some of the RP that might come out of it is cool. I think the double vote and ability to not be exiled are already fairly significant and sort of gives characters the liberty to be more... 'Aggressive?' in their plots without finding themselves immediately exiled the moment the boat rocks. So idk I think it could be healthy for stories. I hope that there is some turn over in those positions that's somewhat reasonable or the people who end up with them make use of the cool mechanical abilities they provide.

I would almost say maybe they don't get enough? If I was the leader of a settlement and I had a troublesome noble I'd begin targeting their friends and subordinates to force the noble into submission. So instead of exiling him i'd just exile his pals. Additionally you could just begin evicting shops owned by or affiliated to said noble. So the only counter leverage the noble has is a double vote and the fact you can't exile -that- noble. Still, not really great cards if you got into a muscle match with a settlement leader. Buuuut not the worst either. The climate of the politics is all situational so maybe it is a good balance.

I think there are some examples of areas where this would empower already established groups to have a firmer unmovable power base. So I do share some concern with that. If there is already a small player pool in an area and conveniently the leader and his pals all have double votes then good luck uprooting them. An outsider is never going to gain traction. This is made even worse when the insiders now have their votes doubled effectively blocking an outsider from getting any barring at all.

In places like Cordor with such a huge voter pool I don't think this is an issue. But in other areas it might be.

I also think any like implementation of mechanics that give players more like 'sandbox' power is good. It'll just be up to players, as usual, to be responsible with the sandbox tools and use them to increase fun for everyone rather than horde the benefits amongst themselves.

I totally like the idea (we yet need to see its preformance), however there must be some way to neutralize double voting, assasination or some new system "abduction" that works like "prisoner" so they cant vote for 3 game months what gives chance for opposition to trigger elections and take that advantage, but it must be RPed well and observed by DM, something like assasination works, maybe to add another "under-category" to assasins, "Bounty Hunters" that works like Radiant Heart auxiliary and that any evil can join just needs to pay for it so they need a sponsor what opens path for being discovered...just tossing ideas.

Also not being able to exile "rebelious nobelman" is a bit troublesome as i did see how one player can undermine a lot before, buuuut...maybe thats small and rare price to pay for so much fun with this system...lets see, but i am sure it will promote more RP and effort from players in settlements.

However i would lower the numbers in all settlements except Cordor and new Guld, double vote will secure long rules, do we want that?

As stated above, would like to see tools or ways how to work against it, but this is awesome update, i recall of this being talked since time Andunor was made.

- Landed nobles have to be in the settlement faction. Are granted by the settlement leader
- 4 Nobles Max. Can remove 1 noble once a year.
- Landed Nobles have 1 extra vote if citizenship count is above 50.
- Landed Nobles cannot be exiled/evicted from the settlement.
- Landed Nobles receive 5% of tax revenue.
- They can grant minor forms of nobility (akin to the reward) by owning special nobility property (4 slots, via faction menu).

I might be wrong here but the impression I get is the extra vote only goes to LANDED nobles.

So rolling up a pc who is a noble is still just one vote.

And as settlments are restricted to only four landed nobles, that's effectivly only four extra votes at maximum.

Handy, but by no means neccesarly a deal breaker.

Tangentially I do very much like the idea of electoral candidates doing the run around to try and secure the support of the local nobility. Finally, a segue into the steak, wine, and cigars RP I've been waiting for.

Drowble Oh Seven wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:39 am Tangentially I do very much like the idea of electoral candidates doing the run around to try and secure the support of the local nobility. Finally, a segue into the steak, wine, and cigars RP I've been waiting for.

...and rising of the hard working class against nobels.

Right? Finally, mechanically-supported Robin Hood can have his day!

Drowble Oh Seven wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:46 am Right? Finally, mechanically-supported Robin Hood can have his day!

But is Robin Hood secretly a noble background?

The GrumpyCat wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:05 am And as settlments are restricted to only four landed nobles, that's effectivly only four extra votes at maximum.

Handy, but by no means neccesarly a deal breaker.

The only problem I have with the new landed nobility is that it's a "rich get richer" system. It actively encourages entrenched cliques because only the current leadership can appoint landed nobles, which means in practice that every regime will have an extra 4 votes for free. Sure in theory you can politic and bribe to get the nobles on your side, but the cynical part of me knows this will also make it harder to get rid of those who just give out the titles to their OOC friends to keep ahold of power more easily.

Nitro wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:13 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:05 am And as settlments are restricted to only four landed nobles, that's effectivly only four extra votes at maximum.

Handy, but by no means neccesarly a deal breaker.

The only problem I have with the new landed nobility is that it's a "rich get richer" system. It actively encourages entrenched cliques because only the current leadership can appoint landed nobles, which means in practice that every regime will have an extra 4 votes for free. Sure in theory you can politic and bribe to get the nobles on your side, but the cynical part of me knows this will also make it harder to get rid of those who just give out the titles to their OOC friends to keep ahold of power more easily.

If Arelith's goal is to get closer to real life, this is the biggest step forward its ever made

Publicly shame these entrenched cliques for being greedy powergamers.

Just continually call them out.

We're simultaneously too polite and too aggressive on these forums. I've no shame calling a spade a spade. Cliques exist beyond the control of DMs, and in a grey area of the "Be Nice" rule.

You can really only counteract them through in-game measures (which can be difficult because they're a clique), or through stating your displeasure.

Honestly, though, this system (like many on Arelith) will simply demonstrate who is excellent and who is not. It'll become really apparent in the next RL month which of these Nobility characters/players actually give a damn, and who are just in it for the mechanical security so they can continue their lollygagging social roleplay.

The GrumpyCat wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:05 am

- Landed nobles have to be in the settlement faction. Are granted by the settlement leader
- 4 Nobles Max. Can remove 1 noble once a year.
- Landed Nobles have 1 extra vote if citizenship count is above 50.
- Landed Nobles cannot be exiled/evicted from the settlement.
- Landed Nobles receive 5% of tax revenue.
- They can grant minor forms of nobility (akin to the reward) by owning special nobility property (4 slots, via faction menu).

I might be wrong here but the impression I get is the extra vote only goes to LANDED nobles.

So rolling up a pc who is a noble is still just one vote.

And as settlments are restricted to only four landed nobles, that's effectivly only four extra votes at maximum.

Handy, but by no means neccesarly a deal breaker.

But how many people actually vote? 4 extra votes is a lot i think when you consider how many people actually vote in elections which I would assume is actually only a very small portion of the citizens maybe I am wrong but I think most citizen counts are likely bloated

Eh, it really varies from election to election. All I can say is to try and use it to encourage people to really get involved in these things. Four extra votes CAN be decisive certainly. But it certainly isn't ALWAYS decisive. No where close to. And that's presuming that every single one of those nobles does vote for the entrenched government, and that may well not be the case.

Summon the elector counts!

Seven Sons of Sin wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:40 pm Publicly shame these entrenched cliques for being greedy powergamers.

Just continually call them out.

We're simultaneously too polite and too aggressive on these forums. I've no shame calling a spade a spade. Cliques exist beyond the control of DMs, and in a grey area of the "Be Nice" rule.

You can really only counteract them through in-game measures (which can be difficult because they're a clique), or through stating your displeasure.

Honestly, though, this system (like many on Arelith) will simply demonstrate who is excellent and who is not. It'll become really apparent in the next RL month which of these Nobility characters/players actually give a damn, and who are just in it for the mechanical security so they can continue their lollygagging social roleplay.

Can I buy you a beer?