Arelith

There's going to be a lot of stuff.

My concern is that I want Leadership somehow in descriptions, to avoid OOC chatter about who needs to be party leader everytime you want to go adventuring.

Putting this in the thread to make it easier to pick out the exact bonuses because the update thread formatting for them is a bit jank:

henchmen/summons get:
+1 saves vs fear
+1 AC
+1 AB
+3 UNI
+1 APR
23 temp hp (replenishing? One-time application?)

And party members get:
+1 vs fear
+1 vs mind affecting
5% movespeed
+1 fort
+1AB

My input's pretty simple, drop the +1 APR and it seems good but not mandatory, as it is there's no reason not to take it on any build that has summons that can benefit from it. The party leader stuff also seems needlessly complicated, why not just make it pull from whoever has the highest rank by default so you don't need to have an OOC conversation about who has the bigger number?

I think without the +1 APR on summons this would wind up being in the garbage bin again.

The other benefits are so minor that investing is not worth it as more than a meme niche. That one benefit makes it something interesting that can be played around with. I think, as it stands, this has made the skill something worth taking. With the limited skill points most characters have, giving your party +1 AB isn't worth an entire skill slot and potential epic skill focus, and without that the rest of the benefits are really worthless.

This change is good.

I'd take this on PDK every time. Love it.

Ork wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 6:24 pm I'd take this on PDK every time. Love it.

+1

Lots of things used to be visible in descriptions back in the day, and I sorta liked that. It showed if they were charismatic, intimidating, persuasive and so on. It was a nice touch, not sure why it was removed, I personally like it.

I like the increasing mechanics being tacked on the settlements. Does the 1d3 votes get rolled at the end of the election?

Aren wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 6:31 pm

Ork wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 6:24 pm I'd take this on PDK every time. Love it.

+1

Same with Gate.

fading wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 6:36 pm Lots of things used to be visible in descriptions back in the day, and I sorta liked that. It showed if they were charismatic, intimidating, persuasive and so on. It was a nice touch, not sure why it was removed, I personally like it.

I think it was because people used the discipline part to figure out who they were and weren't able to knockdown, disarm, or use called shot on easily.

Tribal Barbarians

16 + 4 Epic rep + 3 skill focus + 2 noble + 2 thug + 2 ring + 2 ring + 2 neck + 2 belt + 2 boots + 2 cloak + 2 gloves

27 + 14 = 41 (need to make sure you’ve got 8 or more charisma)

And for this your gain? (At the cost of 1...2...3... feats and a minor reward)

No discernible difference on tribal warriors lol. Unless all these benefits only show up in the logs, in which case I’m way too lazy to do that data mining

**in retrospect PGCC still says “persuade” so maybe it’s not live there

If you're sinking that much into it, just take a 3 level dip into a class that does get persuade leadership and you'll be able to make yourself a decent melee combatant on top of buffing your summons.

CorsicanDoge wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 6:53 pm I like the increasing mechanics being tacked on the settlements. Does the 1d3 votes get rolled at the end of the election?

Votes getting rolled when you join to leadership election.

I like the +APR and think it is the difference between this skill being worth investment, and it not being worth it.

It not affecting druids and mummies is a nice touch.

Mummies are strong enough. Vampires were pretty flimsy and this should give them an extra ARP which makes them worth using again. Mummies are better in all situations, PvE and PvP no matter what you are up against because free WoF and vampires are easily popped with certain spells. Now, with an extra APR I have a reason to bust out vamps to trade durability for DPS.

Druids are godly enough with their 4 summons + pocket WM + monolith shape. It's a blessing their summons can't benefit from this and I only assume that was by design. I haven't checked animal companions though and I hope this doesn't add an extra APR to them, because they're already insane as it is.

I like it. I like it a lot. Having leadership as an actually useful skill is going to be a lot of fun.

Nitro wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:12 pm If you're sinking that much into it, just take a 3 level dip into a class that does get persuade leadership and you'll be able to make yourself a decent melee combatant on top of buffing your summons.

27 tribal loses more than it gains from leadership. You’d be better off sticking to the classic 30 tribal and hoping for a friend with leadership (and buffs! )

This seems very strong for warlocks and blckguards. Those bonuses will make an already worth while balor lord or pit friend general a great deal more powerful.

Nitro wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:41 pm The party leader stuff also seems needlessly complicated, why not just make it pull from whoever has the highest rank by default so you don't need to have an OOC conversation about who has the bigger number?

This, if possible, is my only real niggle. Otherwise, cool, nice to see the skill given a use. Thanks for the ongoing effort!

If it's possible, maybe make it so people cannot change party leadership manually and party leadership will be given automatically to the one with the highest check. An invisible roll can be added whenever someone joins the party. The information is 90% ooc (party leader is ooc info) but 10% IC in that characters can react ICly to the fact someone more inspiring joined the group. Just an idea.

There is no point in investing in Leadership as a wizard or sorcerer. The +1 APR not stacking with haste means that only blackguard and warlock summons truly benefit from this change. Gate summons already come with haste so you end up with a few niches and nothing more. I am of the opinion that it should stack with haste.

Wizards have the skill points to spare so picking up an additional 1 AC/AB/fear save and 3 uni for your summons on top of a dispel proof haste APR is definitely worth it. Sorcs don't have skill points to spare but also have a high enough CHA that they'd only need to invest about 5-8 points (or less if they gear for it. We got some juicy CHA items with +5 persuade in the matrix) to get +1AB/AC/UNI/fear saves which is really good for the small amount of actual investment.

I'm very much a fan of this change all around. The only issue I can think of is, yeah, the "party leader" being the determiner, instead of the Most.

Nitro wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 7:55 am Wizards have the skill points to spare so picking up an additional 1 AC/AB/fear save and 3 uni for your summons on top of a dispel proof haste APR is definitely worth it. Sorcs don't have skill points to spare but also have a high enough CHA that they'd only need to invest about 5-8 points (or less if they gear for it. We got some juicy CHA items with +5 persuade in the matrix) to get +1AB/AC/UNI/fear saves which is really good for the small amount of actual investment.

Gate summon haste was not dispellable afaik.

The problem here is also not the ability to invest in the skill. Irongron mentioned a rework to the base skillpoints after finishing the skill overhaul.

The real problem is when you compare the benefit warlock/blackguard summons get (+1APR on top of the other minor bonuses) to the benefit wizard/sorcerer gets (only minor bonuses). This creates unnecessary disparity. Were blackguard/warlock summons so poor that they needed this change more than Gate summons, besides the fact that their duration is infinite and on cooldown? I don't think so.

Disabled for commoners, right?

WarriorMage wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 8:11 am Gate summon haste was not dispellable afaik.

The problem here is also not the ability to invest in the skill. Irongron mentioned a rework to the base skillpoints after finishing the skill overhaul.

The real problem is when you compare the benefit warlock/blackguard summons get (+1APR on top of the other minor bonuses) to the benefit wizard/sorcerer gets (only minor bonuses). This creates unnecessary disparity. Were blackguard/warlock summons so poor that they needed this change more than Gate summons, besides the fact that their duration is infinite and on cooldown? I don't think so.

I was admittedly thinking more about necro summons than gate, but yes I do agree that warlock summons absolutely did not need a buff.

Make the skill use the highest score in party as the determining leadership score. We already do that for other skills such as search and persuade.

Which summons benefit from these changes?

Will dominated creatures benefit from the Leadership skill?