Arelith

I have a character with very high Spot who kept several Extended True Sight spells slotted. I would cast them every server tick when hanging around in town to keep my Spot as high as possible. I could keep it up for 20-30 minutes depending on how many I slotted. This allowed me to keep the +15 spot bonus up for any period I was hanging around and RPing in any given town or other place I might want to observe others.

As suggested on Discord, I want to see if we can compare/contrast between what's reasonably possible with Spot and Perform/Bluff, because I suspect with this change the ability to Disguise outpaces the ability to Spot.

Totem Druid (wolf)/Monk.
33 Spot from ranks
15 from 40 WIS
5 From Cloak of Sight
5 from Belt of Seeing
18 from +2 on all other gear
6 From Gift of Hunter
2 from Wolf totem

Actual total = 84

If I had taken SF and ESF Spot I would have +13 from that for a hypothetical total of

Hypo Total = 97

Two Discord uses provided data that basically comes out to "real values" of 75ish on a casual disguise character and 84 on another, with a few adjustments a hypothetical of 96.

So spot comes out in a range of 85-95 barring extreme outliers. And Bluff/Perform seems to come out at a similar level. This disregards buffs from Bard Song, Aid, etc etc because both Spot and Bluff/Disguise could benefit from those.

I was expecting to demonstrate that it is realistically possible to get Disguise skills way higher than Spot skills. That doesnt really seem to be the case outside of possibly some outliers. Perhaps my math is bad or i missing something. If so, feel free to add!

You should be able to spot people without true sight about as easily or even more easily than before with true sight. This nerf was to prevent meta-gamers from casting the spell because they see a 'disguised' name and really, good ridden (and I am not saying you're one of them). This is a good change, although I suspect because of certain foig gear, Bluff can be boosted much higher than Perform now post-change and it might be a little bit punishing bards for existing.

I’d still say that only a very few characters will be able to beat the disguise of a character with a really good disguise skill.

Unless you are a cleric or Druid with a spot class dip with a dedicated gear set, there’s not much way to break the disguise of someone who has put any significant effort into having a good disguise skill.

Maybe that’s intentional but even after doing the math I’d say that on a server-wide scale, disguisers will be able to disguise with impunity the vast majority of the time. Unless they run into the probably single-digit number of dedicated spotters on the server.

The quick version of this is:

Availability can always be rebalanced later if needed, but it should never have hinged on a short term buff. There's just too much temptation for people to pop Clairvoyance and TS when they see someone disguised. Even after repeated warnings that this behavior is unacceptable metagaming, it's still really common.

It seems like the team has decided that, rather than fight a losing battle against the bad habits of players, they're going to remove the temptation to cheat.

That's enough of an upside on its own.

The little "justification shuffle" was a pretty common sight too. Someone loudly exclaiming "Is there a sneak around?" popping their TS/clairvoyance and walking in a little circle as if to search for a sneak, then approaching their disguised target, short term spot buffs still conveniently active.

Your math is fine, its just that maxed out wisdom characters are not as common maxed out dex and maxed out dex characters tend to be have more readily access to stealth skills than wisdom characters do for detecting skills.

Your typical non healer cleric build doesn't even max out wisdom and neither do typical druid builds. Both requiring heavy skill investment dips too. Mundane maxed out wisdom, while still be somewhat viable/optimal is also next to non-existent and very suboptimal when it is such.

Don't you make a d20 roll to pierce disguises and such?

Arienette wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:50 pm I have a character with very high Spot who kept several Extended True Sight spells slotted. I would cast them every server tick when hanging around in town to keep my Spot as high as possible. I could keep it up for 20-30 minutes depending on how many I slotted. This allowed me to keep the +15 spot bonus up for any period I was hanging around and RPing in any given town or other place I might want to observe others.

As suggested on Discord, I want to see if we can compare/contrast between what's reasonably possible with Spot and Perform/Bluff, because I suspect with this change the ability to Disguise outpaces the ability to Spot.

Totem Druid (wolf)/Monk.
33 Spot from ranks
15 from 40 WIS
5 From Cloak of Sight
5 from Belt of Seeing
18 from +2 on all other gear
6 From Gift of Hunter
2 from Wolf totem

Actual total = 84

If I had taken SF and ESF Spot I would have +13 from that for a hypothetical total of

Hypo Total = 97

Two Discord uses provided data that basically comes out to "real values" of 75ish on a casual disguise character and 84 on another, with a few adjustments a hypothetical of 96.

So spot comes out in a range of 85-95 barring extreme outliers. And Bluff/Perform seems to come out at a similar level. This disregards buffs from Bard Song, Aid, etc etc because both Spot and Bluff/Disguise could benefit from those.

I was expecting to demonstrate that it is realistically possible to get Disguise skills way higher than Spot skills. That doesnt really seem to be the case outside of possibly some outliers. Perhaps my math is bad or i missing something. If so, feel free to add!

It looks like you have more that +20 from items. Is that even possible?

Those are the actual numbers so... I guess it is possible?

I believe the cap for items/spells is +50 for skills.

The soft bonus to skills caps at 50.

Arienette wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 3:25 am Those are the actual numbers so... I guess it is possible?

I believe the cap for items/spells is +50 for skills.

That is great to know! Thanks.

I dont have a spotter or any disguise character and I am not affected by this change.

But it does seem to me like a good change that will open up the door for more rp.

And correct me if I am wrong, but I dare say that more often than not, breaking someone's disguise will lead to a road end for further rp for someone who could have potetionally opened up a great story for both sides.

Let's have a look at the possible numbers with and without any dependency on the loot matrix:

Spot Gear (only easily accessible):
Cloak of Sight + 5 (crafted)
Elven Helmet +4 (crafted) / Black Iron Coronet +3 (crafted)
Guardsman's Armor +3 (crafted) / Murder's Rainment +5 (crafted)
Rest of Gear +16 (if all are +2)
Prayer +1
Good Hope +2
= a maximum of +33 spot in case of Elven Assassin or character with high enough UMD.
= worst case scenario (Only Cloak of Sight and dweomer gear) you are looking at +28 spot.

Spot Gear (all out):
2x dat Axe for +10
Elven Helmet +4 (Did Goggles of Minute Seeing give +5? Can't remember)
Murder's Rainment +5
Cloak of Sight +5
Belt of Seeing +5
Rest of Gear +10
Prayer +1
Good Hope +2
= a maximum of +42 spot if you want to go all out

Now, with the old short term buffs you can reach the +50 gear/spell cap on all of these options. With the short term buffs removed as of the update, someone who goes all out will require at least a lvl 15 bard to reach the gear/spell cap. The options that are easily accessible will require a lvl 27 bard to reach the cap in the best case scenario and can only reach +48 spot in the worst case scenario with a lvl 30 bard.

Possible feat / uncapped investments:
Gift of the Hunter +6
ESF: Spot +10
SF: Spot +3
Skill Affinity +2
Artist +2
Wolf Totem +2
WIS mod ranging from +1 to +15
Hard investment +33

So, for someone who wishes to invest in spot, we are looking at numbers ranging from 62 spot (33 hard, 28 gear/spell, +1 WIS mod (base 8 + zoo)) to 115 spot (all possible bonus sources with best gear and a WIS of 40) without bard song. With Bard song those numbers go up to 82 spot and 123 spot respectively. Might have missed some spot sources, though.

TL;DR: Reaching the gear/spell cap on spot is no longer possible on your own if you are not a bard. Crazy dedicated spotters can still reach respectable numbers, but will also require a bard to collect that last bit of reaching their hypothetical cap.


Edit: I am dumb and totally forgot Good Hope. Fixed.

I'm glad for the change. It's really dumb watching people pop true seeing around disguised people.

Arienette wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:18 pm I’d still say that only a very few characters will be able to beat the disguise of a character with a really good disguise skill.

Unless you are a cleric or Druid with a spot class dip with a dedicated gear set, there’s not much way to break the disguise of someone who has put any significant effort into having a good disguise skill.

So what you're saying is that people good at disguise beat people not good at spotting and people good at spotting can notice people good at disguise... How terrible.

My only issue with Bluff is basically the Rogue issue, in that con men (rogues) continue to be bad at the hallmarks of their own class. They make terrible disguisers, searchers, and detrappers because all these skills are associated with stats useless to the class when they should be the best at it.

Ironic that True Sight gets this nerf when the exact same princple would and should decide it gets another desperately-needed nerf as well...

Right now the numbers are pretty even for spot VS bluff/perform if anything it still favors spot. Excluding multiclassing capabilities this is the break down of classes that get it. Partial stat is for classes that aren't typically dump stat classes rather than one that wants to max it out. I still keep seeing the roll to pierce a disguise omitted from the math. Its like stealth, if you're not X points over someone's spot they can and will succeed on the roll eventually.

20 classes get bluff
20 classes get spot
6 classes get perform (only class that has perform without bluff is Monk)

High stat Classes:

wis/spot 0
cha/bluff/perform 2 (sorc/lock)

Partial stat classes:
wis/spot 4(ra/pal/monk/shift)
cha/bluff/perform 3 (BG/hex/bard)

The most realistic spotter build would be an elf eagle totem druid with rogue taken for spot. Total spot would be 118 without the need for buffs because they hit the +50 skill cap.

Highest bluff build would be 97 (101buffed) as a Sorc. At a +36 skill boost with just gear. I don't know perform gear as well.
Edit: Perform might be better in the end with bard song, but that also makes it harder to disguise if you need to sing for the boost.

Sorc

Special helm +4
Special robe +6
Murder cloth +5
Addy bracer +6
Gift of Gab +6
Elvis kicks +3
Ruby neck +3
Singing gloves +3
Cha mod +15
Skill Foci +13
Hard PTS +33
Total 97


Eagle Druid+ 12
dual dat axe+10
Elf +2
Cloak of Sight +5
Belt of seeing +5
Elven Helmet+ 4
Gift of hunter +6
rest of gear +12
Artist +2
Wis mod +15
Skill foci +13
Hard PTS +33
Total 118 + whatever roll there is.

Polymorphed creatures do not retain all their item slot bonuses instead they merge into one "skin" item that does not all for stat/skill stacking.

Ah damn I forgot that. Fixed the numbers.

Might-N-Magic wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 4:26 pm

Arienette wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:18 pm I’d still say that only a very few characters will be able to beat the disguise of a character with a really good disguise skill.

Unless you are a cleric or Druid with a spot class dip with a dedicated gear set, there’s not much way to break the disguise of someone who has put any significant effort into having a good disguise skill.

So what you're saying is that people good at disguise beat people not good at spotting and people good at spotting can notice people good at disguise... How terrible.

My only issue with Bluff is basically the Rogue issue, in that con men (rogues) continue to be bad at the hallmarks of their own class. They make terrible disguisers, searchers, and detrappers because all these skills are associated with stats useless to the class when they should be the best at it.

Ironic that True Sight gets this nerf when the exact same princple would and should decide it gets another desperately-needed nerf as well...

The issue is the small class list/niche that is potentially that good at spotting; not that you have to be good at spotting. Clerics and druids are flexible, but are also some if the most nuanced/specific roleplay in the game and both are casters with no mundane options to be "good spotters"