Zoo Buff Updates

[a shrouded figure]

Just wanted to say thank-you as a constant player of hybrid characters. I do have a tiny bit of feedback outside of my thanks for giving us the QoL spells

Most hybrids get four casts of a level 2 spell. As a hybrid, four stat requirements are fairly common. Would we ever consider making player cast zoo spells (or heck even potion / Wands) a flat 5 without focuses? As it stands I basically have to drink 4 potions, then cast my four zoo buffs to make sure I’m at +5 /and/ a good duration.

A bit of a suggestion, a bit of feedback... just a thought.

[Drogo Gyslain]

Just wanted to say thank-you as a constant player of hybrid characters. I do have a tiny bit of feedback outside of my thanks for giving us the QoL spells

Most hybrids get four casts of a level 2 spell. As a hybrid, four stat requirements are fairly common. Would we ever consider making player cast zoo spells (or heck even potion / Wands) a flat 5 without focuses? As it stands I basically have to drink 4 potions, then cast my four zoo buffs to make sure I’m at +5 /and/ a good duration.

A bit of a suggestion, a bit of feedback... just a thought.

There are already IG ways to ensure that you get best cast, but... you have to invest into them. Having a chance to get something lesser than seems on par with normal balanced design.

I would never advocate for Max Buff every time.

Chalk it up to:
improper potion manufacturing
sub par qualities
bad mix ratio
mis said a word when reading a scroll
cracked glass and you're missing half of the vial you just drank
your own inferoirites.

[a shrouded figure]

I think my argument would be that are lithe already let’s you stack buffs to get the maximum benefit, I don’t think that anyone actually uses maximize on zoo buffs- but I could be mistaken. It’s just my opinion, it feels like auto maxing zoo buffs is purely QOL and doesn’t affect the game in a major way.

[Beard Master Flex]

Zoo buff's being auto maximized for everyone, potion, wand or spell would be an incredible Quality of life improvement.

[Xerah]

It’s not really a QOL improvement, it is an across the board power buff. You can restate it however you want but people definitely have changed how they stat things since these started stacking. This has, of course, made 3+ stat classes even more powerful as a result.

I really think I stacking should be removed or the bonus should be made static at 3 or 4.

[Zavandar]

i don't think zoo buffs need to auto-maximized. they're fine with the current dynamic. has pvp implications, too. might need to reroll that endurance if you were relying on a +5 to cap and only rolled a +2 after it was dispelled.

i also don't think they should be capped at 3 or 4. i get that we want to punish div builds and monk dips (i think they need nerfs too), but a change like this would harm build diversity in a lot of other ways, too.

it's okay to let people have their +12's (with gear, effort, and zoo re-rolling).

[a shrouded figure]

To me it feels like re-buffing in pvp is a bit niche as I’m generally falling over dead when any random power builder decides to eat me. Generally I think we all build and gear around 7+5 for the /most/ part, the only time I’m not drinking a potion pre-cast is when I am slumming it in below level content.

I only brought this subject up as with only four casts, if someone has to double cast strength for instance- having owls wisdom as a “new spell” isn’t much use as they don’t have enough casts to make use of their new found goodies.

I’m happy either way, and very thankful for the new spells! Just thought it was an interesting idea worth mentioning

[mjones3]

Most hybrids get four casts of a level 2 spell. As a hybrid, four stat requirements are fairly common. Would we ever consider making player cast zoo spells (or heck even potion / Wands) a flat 5 without focuses? As it stands I basically have to drink 4 potions, then cast my four zoo buffs to make sure I’m at +5 /and/ a good duration.

Daggers enchanted for level 2 spell slots are your friend, equip them and slot the needed spells before resting. I stopped needing them after getting a 3rd slot before but now that I get all 3 buffing spells they are back in action.

[a shrouded figure]

That’s a really slick idea. +1

[AstralUniverse]

I'm also in favor of reverting the stacking. It would make the game a lot more interesting and make these meta powerbuilds much harder to play in the player skill aspect.

Also, is hexblade also getting the paladin/ranger/bard treatment?

[Baron Saturday]

I'm also in favor of reverting the stacking. It would make the game a lot more interesting and make these meta powerbuilds much harder to play in the player skill aspect.

Reverting the stacking to... What? Vanilla behavior? Because ngl, I really do not miss applying every necessary zoo buff 3+ times just because the rng was against me. That's more of a gold or time tax than a nerf.

[Xerah]

Reverting the stacking to... What? Vanilla behavior? Because ngl, I really do not miss applying every necessary zoo buff 3+ times just because the rng was against me. That's more of a gold or time tax than a nerf.

Yes, that's exactly the point. You don't need to have +5. You can build around getting +4 50% of the time. Building around +5 means you build around the requirement to get a +5 which only happens 25% of the time. This whole thing allows more multi stat builds to exist.

[AstralUniverse]

I'm also in favor of reverting the stacking. It would make the game a lot more interesting and make these meta powerbuilds much harder to play in the player skill aspect.

Reverting the stacking to... What? Vanilla behavior? Because ngl, I really do not miss applying every necessary zoo buff 3+ times just because the rng was against me. That's more of a gold or time tax than a nerf.

I find it silly that we calculate zoo buffs in character building, aka I need +7 to this, this and that stat because I will get +5 from zoo buffs, guaranteed. It seemed like a nice QoL at first but it's just a binary and boring aspect of the game now, where it used to be more dynamic, risky and with more decision making. "Should I leave my dex 5 away from max or 3 away from max and it will hurt my secondary stats?" is a question I want to be asking in this game again and I know it will do wonders to the outcome of pvp. It will add some randomness on one side but put emphasis on decisions and player skill from the other side.

[Zavandar]

you realize that nerfing zoos just nerfs every build (not just multi stat) and just makes mages/abj stronger, correct?

all these builds that don't dip div gear saves instead. if they have to gear more zoo then that's less saves. this makes them more susceptible to save or die (as it would to everyone else, really). some of your monk dips would lose an ac or two. some of your div dips, too. in the end, ac/ab wouldn't swing a whole lot, but saves would.

is that what you're intending by suggesting they get nerfed to +3 or +4?

[Wrips]

Most tri stat or even quad stat builds will sacrifice skill in gear to do disc, stat, stat, 5% stat, t3 rune stat, yeah. I feel like this is just make gearing even more painful by making it mandatory to farm adamantine to 5% and t3 rune helmets and shields (and, ironically, the dex builds have a easier time putting stats on their gear with a 5% t2 runed fine enchanted silk shirt.

Why not balance the classes around the features and stats they are actually expected to have and gear for, instead of allowing time consuming and expensive - but possible - powerful builds, just to nerf zoo spells with the argument that it will (supposedly so) affect MAD builds more.

[Kalopsia]

Zoo spell stacking was my suggestion back in the day. I'm still really happy with the QoL aspect of the change and grateful that it made it into the game at all.

To circumvent the impact on character equipment and protect the purpose of Maximize Spell, I had originally intended for repeated casts of zoo spells to only reliably stack up to +4. Getting +5 to a stat was meant to be possible, but remain a matter of luck or having a maximized version available.

However, the world was different back then. People could use a wand 30 times if they wanted to, and would end up with thirty separate applications of the particular zoo buff they cast, thus requiring thirty successful dispels to fully remove the buff. This kind of stacking was recently disabled and now a single successful dispel removes the entire stat buff.
Builds relying on getting +5 in three, maybe four stats will thus require a lot of time to recover from a powerful dispel. I believe that's a fair trade-off to the benefits outlined above.

[a shrouded figure]

I mean honestly, it’s pure QOL. It’s not like potions are expensive. If we took away stacking to +5, you’d just make the gap between meta and casual larger. I’ll always walk around with my zoo buffs at maximum, hundreds of hours have gone into equipment that assumes +5 to certain stats, I assure you that having to drink 5 potions instead of 1 wouldn’t stop me or many others. This is why I suggested auto +5 on zoo buffs, or do scaling buffs even (+1,2,3,4,5 per x caster levels).

I don’t see people to stop planning around +5.

[AstralUniverse]

Most tri stat or even quad stat builds will sacrifice skill in gear to do disc, stat, stat, 5% stat, t3 rune stat, yeah. I feel like this is just make gearing even more painful by making it mandatory to farm adamantine to 5% and t3 rune helmets and shields (and, ironically, the dex builds have a easier time putting stats on their gear with a 5% t2 runed fine enchanted silk shirt.

Why not balance the classes around the features and stats they are actually expected to have and gear for, instead of allowing time consuming and expensive - but possible - powerful builds, just to nerf zoo spells with the argument that it will (supposedly so) affect MAD builds more.

Because it's boring. Like... you build a character and you already know from the start that you will put 13 dex because your late game armor is 4/4 and you want 18. you can now get that 18 at any point with 2 cat potions. No decision making, no skill, no brain. Why balance the game around THAT, when it is already better balanced with a higher degree of RNG?

Sure, it kinda nerfs some builds, and rules out some builds.. but tbh those builds were never supposed to work THIS well (talking about you, spellsword/monk).

There will always be the most optimal builds achievable only by in game foig buffs and 5% addy grind. This doesnt change that. You may still build your character around them if you want.

[Good Character]

You cannot inherently balance anything when RNG is invited into the pot. It is why most spellcaster builds take Maximize Spell - RNG is unreliable.

The stacking was necessary; it allows people to actually define builds rather than account for every stringent technicality like "can I sacrifice X feat because they might not have the greatest will saves?" If you can estimate their saves, you won't sit there and regret taking a certain feat or taking a certain investment in stats.

A fantastic example of how bad it is to balance with RNG involved is Hearthstone. RNG exists in the game to make it more interesting, however quickly people found out how difficult it was to make logical, smart plays in higher rankings due to RNG being unpredictable.

[AstralUniverse]

This game is already RNG. Everything is RNG here.

Stacking was not necessary. It allows people to meet all the goal stats of their build effortlessly, thoughtlessly. They can just caclulate head on exactly what stats they will have on every slot. It allows builds like pdk Valiant walk around with 11 cha because they buff it to 16 with a potion and they take that into account in their build because it's a static factor. As a result it opens loopholes in building decisions, as I keep providing more and more example for, and it reduces decision making and player skill. The game is not balanced around it and I see no reason to start nerfing all the quadra-stat builds one by one (like we've been doing in the past year) instead of just removing the static factors from this back to how it was. It's hits several nails at once.

[a shrouded figure]

I’m not sure how having to drink 7 potions praying to RNGesus is anymore thoughtful than letting zoo buffs stack, or as I’m suggesting just making them +5. Almost any hybrid class is a “quadrastat” when it comes to min maxing.

I don’t see zoo buffs as the root cause of power builds. You could just as well argue that single or dual stat builds are 10x more thoughtless because gearing doesn’t matter.

[AstralUniverse]

I’m not sure how having to drink 7 potions praying to RNGesus is anymore thoughtful than letting zoo buffs stack

I will try to explain this one last time.

When you know in advance that you need to gear +7, you just do it and you dont have any other factor to account for.

If you had to account for lower rolls than 5, you suddenly might consider gearing more than +7, and suddenly a player next to you that is using the same build spreedsheet as yours is playing it and gearing it differently, making different decisions than you and performing better/worse than you.

[Good Character]

I really cannot see the point you are trying to make. In what way is a RNG mechanic more thought-provoking? Had potions/wands/zoo spells immediately buffed people to +5 with one go, then yes I could understand where you are coming from with your argument of "should I take more of X stat on my armor in case of Y situation". However, it does not work like that. What you are arguing can still happen. If you get dispelled, that entire +5 is gone and you have to either pray you land a +5 on your next roll or be down possibly -3 AB, damage, AC, and/or saves.

The only difference between the stacking and not stacking is you aren't sitting there fishing for rolls pre-fight. People still geared for +7. Quadrastat builds just came to fruition because of bloated stats on equips (e.g. Disciple's Garbs) and the allure of taking a divine dip that offered both accessibility to wands due to the Lore change (with Lore taking precedence over UMD) and a huge AC bump. Stacking zoo buffs is rightfully one of the most important QoL updates that has been made.

[Baron Saturday]

Yes, that's exactly the point. You don't need to have +5. You can build around getting +4 50% of the time. Building around +5 means you build around the requirement to get a +5 which only happens 25% of the time. This whole thing allows more multi stat builds to exist.

I mean, whatever the maximum is, people who want to get the most out of their character are gonna build and gear around that.

I find it silly that we calculate zoo buffs in character building, aka I need +7 to this, this and that stat because I will get +5 from zoo buffs, guaranteed. It seemed like a nice QoL at first but it's just a binary and boring aspect of the game now, where it used to be more dynamic, risky and with more decision making. "Should I leave my dex 5 away from max or 3 away from max and it will hurt my secondary stats?" is a question I want to be asking in this game again and I know it will do wonders to the outcome of pvp. It will add some randomness on one side but put emphasis on decisions and player skill from the other side.

The builder assumption of +5 from zoo buffs has existed since long, long before zoo buff stacking was introduced. The only version of that question I have ever asked myself was "Should I get +7 from gear, or do I go for +8 because I'm too lazy to fully optimize and that's good enough?" There was never any dynamic, risky decision making. Just deciding how much boredom (i.e. from reapplying buffs & grinding for gold/shopping for wands) I was willing to put up with.

[Wrips]

Because it's boring. Like... you build a character and you already know from the start that you will put 13 dex because your late game armor is 4/4 and you want 18. you can now get that 18 at any point with 2 cat potions. No decision making, no skill, no brain. Why balance the game around THAT, when it is already better balanced with a higher degree of RNG?

I disagree. I think there's enough decision making in any encounter that's far more important and entertaining for the player than "If I get dispelled, how many cat's potion I'll need to chug to come back kickin'?" What you are proposing isn't decision making or skill based play, it's just (more) tedious gearing in order to avoid uncertainty. With enough time and gold, you can apply +8 on 4 stats (instead of +7), on a dex build by 5% and t3 rune all the 7 slots plus an enchanted silk shirt.

Sure, it kinda nerfs some builds, and rules out some builds.. but tbh those builds were never supposed to work THIS well (talking about you, spellsword/monk).

They are strong but compared to a dex-div build, even the most unorthodox ones, like div swash, they underperform. Most spellswords also went for +8 to one or two stats on their gear to avoid losing too much AC and HP to dispels.

There will always be the most optimal builds achievable only by in game foig buffs and 5% addy grind. This doesnt change that. You may still build your character around them if you want.

I must be missing the point but all I can see is that your proposal will make these "foig buffs and 5% addy grind" even more important, as attribute slots on equipment also become more important, even for basic builds. It's also something that starts to demand grouping for more efficient grinding and favors ooc cliques because they can simply coordinate ooc where and how to circle grind those addy spawn, which will just increase the gap between players. *I don't mind circle grinding resources, or OOC communication, of course, but those that don't have friends playing the game or a dedicated OOC or IC group will fall behind quite fast.*