Arelith

Posted: **Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:19 pm**

Favored Soul, while I enjoy the class, still has its shortcomings when compared to Cleric. Favored's get some elemental resist which isn't exactly game-breaking and a very limited spell selection. They do not get Divine Might/Shield nor do they get Domains or the ability to consecrate/desecrate. I think Favored Souls should get a bonus feat at levels 10 and 20, allowing them to choose either spell focus, metamagic or spell penetration feats. This allows them to be a little less restricted while not giving them too much. Thoughts?

Posted: **Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:58 pm**

Favoured soul doesnt need a buff.

It needs it's Haste in it's spellbook and call it a day.

Posted: **Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:06 pm**

Not sure if you knew this about the energy resist feats or not but they stack with other sources. So if you have energy resist - Fire and a protective essence that gives 5/- fire resist you get a total of 10 fire resistance.

This means a properly geared and leveled favored soul has a a permanent endure elements effect on them.

Posted: **Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:33 pm**

AstralUniverse wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:58 pm Favoured soul doesnt need a buff.

It needs it's Haste in it's spellbook and call it a day.

Posted: **Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:31 pm**

AstralUniverse wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:58 pm Favoured soul doesnt need a buff.

It needs it's Haste in it's spellbook and call it a day.

At a level 5 spell? No thank you, giving up a spell all so you have the convenience of extending your Haste is not worth it. They have severely limited spell selection once you grab all the spells every cleric/favored soul needs.

mjones3 wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:06 pm This means a properly geared and leveled favored soul has a a permanent endure elements effect on them.

I'm aware of this but that's not a huge buff, it makes them a problem for Dex based Hexblades but it's only 5 more damage resist than everyone already gets just from items.

Posted: **Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:44 pm**

What if Haste is added as a sixth level spell instead? Would decrease the amount of Word of Faiths a Favored Soul can spam, at least.

Posted: **Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:49 pm**

WoF is a level 7 spell, level 6 you have 4 spells so your option is to give up either Harm, Heal, Gsanc, or Greater Dispel, choose wisely.

Posted: **Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:54 pm**

Security_Blanket wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:49 pm WoF is a level 7 spell, level 6 you have 4 spells so your option is to give up either Harm, Heal, Gsanc, or Greater Dispel, choose wisely.

The entire point is that you have to make choices. Adding haste as a selectable spell is in the to-do list as far as I know.

Posted: **Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:00 am**

Security_Blanket wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:49 pm WoF is a level 7 spell, level 6 you have 4 spells so your option is to give up either Harm, Heal, Gsanc, or Greater Dispel, choose wisely.

Extended Haste in this situation would be a level 7 spell, that's my point.

Posted: **Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:08 am**

Xerah wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:54 pm The entire point is that you have to make choices.

Making choosing cleric over favored soul preferable, you're talking about taking away from a class that needs attention instead of throwing them a bone. Just looking at the builds available on the character builds page in the wiki, you have 5 Shaman builds available that people decided were viable and 0 Favored Soul builds. Both base classes were added at the same time. That alone is a good indicator that Favored Souls are lower tier, they have strengths, but they're not on par with others.

A cleric can slot a single NEP because that's all they need to cast, no dice on a Favored Soul, can either cast it or you can't period. Now remember that for every single buff a cleric casts, shortly after you have maybe 4 spells from levels 1-9 that you can choose from to really individualize your character by their chosen spell school.

Red_Wharf wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:00 am Extended Haste in this situation would be a level 7 spell, that's my point.

You'd still be giving up one of those necessary spells, extended Haste is only good if you plan on running through everything Hasted as long as possible so you can rest and go back to grinding quickly. If you cast a regular Haste for PvP, the battle is almost always over before the timer is up. Putting Haste in the spellbook would be such a terrible nerf to the Favored Soul all so people can grind faster.

Posted: **Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:17 am**

Security_Blanket wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:08 am
Xerah wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:54 pm The entire point is that you have to make choices.
Making choosing cleric over favored soul preferable, you're talking about taking away from a class that needs attention instead of throwing them a bone. Just looking at the builds available on the character builds page in the wiki, you have 5 Shaman builds available that people decided were viable and 0 Favored Soul builds. Both base classes were added at the same time. That alone is a good indicator that Favored Souls are lower tier, they have strengths, but they're not on par with others.

A cleric can slot a single NEP because that's all they need to cast, no dice on a Favored Soul, can either cast it or you can't period. Now remember that for every single buff a cleric casts, shortly after you have maybe 4 spells from levels 1-9 that you can choose from to really individualize your character by their chosen spell school.

Red_Wharf wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:00 am Extended Haste in this situation would be a level 7 spell, that's my point.
You'd still be giving up one of those necessary spells, extended Haste is only good if you plan on running through everything Hasted as long as possible so you can rest and go back to grinding quickly. If you cast a regular Haste for PvP, the battle is almost always over before the timer is up. Putting Haste in the spellbook would be such a terrible nerf to the Favored Soul all so people can grind faster.

Using posted builds on the wiki for how viable a class is a really terrible metric. Your theory is flawed.

Sorcerer has the exact same issue. If you want an open choice, you choose a wizard. If you want many more casts but less selection, you choose sorcerer. It's the same thing with cleric and FS. It's the whole point of the class.

Haste was added as 4xday just because there were concerns that it would be too powerful. This doesn't seem to be the case at the moment, so adding it to the spellbook will help it out quite a bit.

Posted: **Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:31 am**

How is being able to double the duration of Haste at the cost of a level 6 spell in any way considered too powerful? It's not double power it's double time, Sorcerers also have the ability to use Divine Shield, which Favored Souls do not. You can argue that you have to make sacrifices for it, but where are these versatile options for the Favored Soul? Clerics get the choice of being a Healer path or a regular old cleric with all the same options they normally have.

All the arguments that get thrown around between Favored Souls and Clerics is that Favored Souls are NOT Clerics, so they don't get any cleric stuff, domains, consecrating, language (which I think may be getting added). Then you compare that to the other spontaneous divine casting class that was added. Shaman gets Epic Spell Focus Divination for FREE, I'd give up energy resist in a heartbeat for that. They also get their levels added to a Barbarian's Rage, well isn't that special.

Xerah wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:17 am Using posted builds on the wiki for how viable a class is a really terrible metric. Your theory is flawed.

I said it's an indicator and I stand by what I said, people are competitive and flock to the strongest classes and builds. A lot of people, myself included, like to waste our time making builds we'll never play. The lack of builds tells me those same people don't see as many fun options for this class over others.

Posted: **Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:37 am**

Your lvl 5 spells will be Haste, Raise Dead, True Seeing and Spell Resistance OR take Ressurection in higher lvl and Battletide instead of Raise Dead. You'll survive. And if you still dont understand why it's a buff... well... I guess I'm sorry to hear.

About the class in general. It has a lot more skill points than cleric and has 5 DR against elementals which stacks with essences to 10, its a lot. On top of that, the class doesnt need to choose domains and still gets Haste, imp invis, stoneskin, Aura of vitality, etc. Its, in trade, limited by spell selection the way sorcerer is limited, which is the whole point. I really dont think a favoured soul is weaker than cleric, I just think favoured soul has less builds, which is to be expected because 1) its a new class 2) cleric is a very wonky and strange functioning class with loopholes like div might shuriken zen archer 3) cleric can monk or div dip. Does it make favoured soul any less good at what it does? No it does not, it is not related.

Posted: **Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:58 am**

Xerah wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:54 pm Adding haste as a selectable spell is in the to-do list as far as I know.

Correct.

Posted: **Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:31 am**

AstralUniverse wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:37 am ...has 5 DR against elementals which stacks with essences to 10...

It can easily go higher than 10 as well based on what gear you wear. I can think of a few items in game that would give you a flat 15 DR against certain elements. Its VERY strong for dealing with Elemental
Shield and Acid Sheath. If you can work in immunities you can essentially ignore needing to breach those spells in melee combat.

Posted: **Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:35 am**

mjones3 wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:31 am
AstralUniverse wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:37 am ...has 5 DR against elementals which stacks with essences to 10...
It can easily go higher than 10 as well based on what gear you wear. I can think of a few items in game that would give you a flat 15 DR against certain elements. Its VERY strong for dealing with Elemental
Shield and Acid Sheath. If you can work in immunities you can essentially ignore needing to breach those spells in melee combat.

You're not wrong. I just meant that if you have 5/- essences on your gear you're walking around with 10/- without accounting for situational items. It is indeed a nice boost to Acid gear when you walk through hell.

Posted: **Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:55 am**

garrbear758 wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:58 am
Xerah wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:54 pm Adding haste as a selectable spell is in the to-do list as far as I know.
Correct.

Well, that sucks, not only do you lose another spell but total spells cast per day. I know I'll survive but I don't consider this a buff by any means but a silly nerf to a very bland class.

AstralUniverse wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:35 am
mjones3 wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:31 am
AstralUniverse wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:37 am ...has 5 DR against elementals which stacks with essences to 10...
It can easily go higher than 10 as well based on what gear you wear. I can think of a few items in game that would give you a flat 15 DR against certain elements. Its VERY strong for dealing with Elemental
Shield and Acid Sheath. If you can work in immunities you can essentially ignore needing to breach those spells in melee combat.
You're not wrong. I just meant that if you have 5/- essences on your gear you're walking around with 10/- without accounting for situational items. It is indeed a nice boost to Acid gear when you walk through hell.

Potentially, but again that's only 5 points more than anyone else will achieve with the exact same gear. All the room you make for those immunities means sacrificing somewhere else in gear, it's always a trade-off. Energy Resist also doesn't stack with Epic Energy Resist if being immune to fire/acid was the main selling point. It's handy but it's nothing to scream about. Favored Soul is completely lacking in synergy with most classes and it's garbage by itself.

Posted: **Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:32 am**

Adding haste to the spell list is very much the opposite of a silly nerf. It allows for more casts per day as well as the spell to be extended.

As for synergy it has the same synergies as sorcerer. It pairs very well with paladin, hexblade, and blackguard.

Posted: **Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:39 am**

mjones3 wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:32 am As for synergy it has the same synergies as sorcerer. It pairs very well with paladin, hexblade, and blackguard.

Its a lot more recommended to go bard/specialist. AC > Saves.

This class is also (on top of having 5/- elemental and high skill points and spells from several domains) has 3 primary saves, which is why gearing to 40~ saves is relatively easy. +3 ac is a much better investment.

Posted: **Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:07 am**

mjones3 wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:32 am Adding haste to the spell list is very much the opposite of a silly nerf. It allows for more casts per day as well as the spell to be extended.

You gain extra castings of a specific spell, the only reason you would need to extend Haste is for running through dungeons. Regular haste is enough for any PvP or other epic fight. You lose total spells per day by losing those 4 castings of Haste in place of having to use your level 5 or level 6 spells.

mjones3 wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:32 am As for synergy it has the same synergies as sorcerer. It pairs very well with paladin, hexblade, and blackguard.

Sorcerer is also an arcanist, they're throwing out a lot of firepower that a Favored Soul isn't. But they can go Blackguard or Paladin for the saves and Divine Shield and Autostill for enough AC to laugh at most melee builds. Don't forget Palemaster either, or Red Dragon Disciple, or the fact that Sorcerers can be either HiPsing Shadow Mages or True Flames.

AstralUniverse wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:39 am Its a lot more recommended to go bard/specialist. AC > Saves.

This class is also (on top of having 5/- elemental and high skill points and spells from several domains) has 3 primary saves, which is why gearing to 40~ saves is relatively easy. +3 ac is a much better investment.

Incorrect, you get one or the other in that example. 27 Favored Soul 3 Specialist/Bard leaves you at 17 base in each save before abilities and gear, so if you managed to get even +10 to universal saves you're sitting at 27 in each. Meaning it's probably worth it to sacrifice that 3 AC for extra saves. Which goes back to the class's lack of options.

Posted: **Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:15 am**

Security_Blanket wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:07 am Incorrect, you get one or the other in that example. 27 Favored Soul 3 Specialist/Bard leaves you at 17 base in each save before abilities and gear, so if you managed to get even +10 to universal saves you're sitting at 27 in each. Meaning it's probably worth it to sacrifice that 3 AC for extra saves. Which goes back to the class's lack of options.

27 reflex and will (fort will be higher from maxed constitution). There are also spells which are quite long lasting, low level and quite mandatory which boost your saves even further. On top of all that, there's also at least +7 saves vs spells from spellcraft. You do not need to dip divine for saves. You need ac, as much as you can get. Dont tell me I'm incorrect when my argument is supported by math and yours is just based on how you flavor your unoptimized gear.

Posted: **Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:41 am**

AstralUniverse wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:39 am . . . which is why gearing to 40~ saves is relatively easy. +3 ac is a much better investment.

AstralUniverse wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:15 am 27 reflex and will (fort will be higher from maxed constitution). There are also spells which are quite long lasting, low level and quite mandatory which boost your saves even further. On top of all that, there's also at least +7 saves vs spells from spellcraft. You do not need to dip divine for saves. You need ac, as much as you can get. Dont tell me I'm incorrect when my argument is supported by math and yours is just based on how you flavor your unoptimized gear.

I pulled an arbitrary number out of my head as that is about what you'd probably be pulling with a few items that give +2 to Uni saves, which means less room for other crucial things like discipline. Even with that 27 in each save and +7 to saves vs spells, you're not hitting the 40s in saves, I challenged your math because it did not equate. You're not in a terrible spot going that way, I guess. I wouldn't personally recommend it as either way you'll be looking at subpar AC. The AC will be about the same as what other classes might pull, but then they have other options available to them to bring the AC up, Divine Shield, Epic Mage Armor, even clerics can specialize with their Domains and go charisma based.

Posted: **Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:58 am**

Favored Soul OP.

Posted: **Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:00 am**

Unless you made the terrible mistake of not going epic transmutation on a favoured soul, you should have the easiest gear in the game. You just need to gear a lot of cha, unisave and skills. Your cleric buffs allow you to stat-skill/save your armor shield and helmet slots even. Just +1 to your str and con on gear should max you at +12 with zoo buffs and Aura of vitality. Your divine dip route is flexible, and beginner friendly and doesnt really take full advantage of your class's potential and base stats and kit.

Posted: **Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:03 am**

We also should take a moment to remember that favored souls get 4+INT mod skill points AND have high saves for all 3 saves, while clerics get high for only fortitude and will saves and only get 2+INT mod skill points.

All in all, I think favored souls are in a good place as is honestly. Could maybe receive some QoL here and there but I don't think getting extra feats is necessary

Arelith

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