Arelith

We'll see how this plays out in game, but I think the buff to mighty rage went a little too far. Now, I do agree that mighty rage was a trap, and did need a buff, but a full on complete wipe of all CC and debuffs is a VERY strong ability. Having that fire off every thirty seconds is essentially making barbarians unstoppable for the duration of their rage unless you can burst through ~800hp or higher, and with mighty rage, along with a modified base-con of 20 (32 after gear+Endurance), that's an average of 2 minutes 36 seconds (or essentially wiping all CC and debuffs six times in total).

Gameplay will reveal whether my expectations about this change are true, but every class built largely around either debuffs or CC is going to get utterly destroyed by this updated rage feat. This paired with a strategic -pray means the Barb has access to three uses of a free-action instant Restoration in the course of 30 seconds.

I do agree that Mighty Rage, and Barbarians in general, do deserve a boost from where they stood prior to this update, just not one that is quite this dramatic. Some ideas off the top of my head as alternate Mighty Rage changes are: Maybe add a bit more to the extra regen while making the cooldown on the restoration effect extend to 45 or 60 seconds. Maybe make the followup restoration effects only wipe debuffs (like lesser restoration does), or maybe only wipe one or two effects away each time the rage-resto triggers?

I mean, as well they get good DI naturally and as well for 1 feat will get what DD's in 3 with only the feat and gear alone (3 base regeneration and max of 6 CON bonus from gear and buffs).

Of course, they don't get as much free DR like DD does but DDs do spend 3 feats for more DR and don't get permanent 10 DI during rage, instead getting 20 DI if they invest 3 class feats in it and at which point they sacrifice either 3 regeneration or 5% DI or 2 dodge AC and 2 unisaves and 1 AB.

For comparison. Barb gets free passive damage, less free DR but still free DR, at least 7 regeneration on account of needing 19 CON and at most 13 regeneration, and free DI as well as 4 dodge AC at level 20, along with increasing the duration of rage and free CC removal every 30 seconds for 1 feat.

Assuming 16 DD, you can get 9 regeneration and 20% DI for 30 seconds on a 2 minute cooldown, 6 regeneration and the 20% DI and 2 extra dodge AC and 2 unisaves and 1 soft AB, or 9 regeneration at 15% DI for 30 seconds and the aforementioned bonuses from ironstance, not to mention that ironstance also slows you down to 62.5% speed (affected by haste though) during it. You also get 4x your DD level in temp HP but on a 30 second cooldown after leaving stance. That takes up ALL of your DD class feats, and is a PrC.

Ill admit, I am a fan of DD and am a believer that barbarian is an overtuned class, but there is a disparity here that may need to be addressed. But, still glad that a more defensive barbarian can be an easier option now, but all of the above and big damage bonuses are excessive on the class.



Edit: And plus, the epic DD feats are nice, mostly aegis albeit. So realistically you're not even getting all of the above, only getting t3 of one ability and t2 of another, or t3 of one ability, aegis, ironstance, and t1 of another.

That's the main concern, yes. If this was a defense-focused class, the ability to just shrug off CC/Debuffs constantly would be less problematic, but barbs are nearly universally two-handed str built DPS machines that hit hard enough to rip people in half. Add in weapon master, or just lean heavily on the immense 2h damage, and the fact you can't stop a barb becomes a huge problem.

Barbs were already the masters and mistresses of the shotgun strategy (no need for windup, immediate smackdown in PvP), but now they also have lost their primary drawback (will/reflex based CC).

Considering how big of a change this is for barbarians, is there any chance they can get rebuilds?

Arigard wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:11 pm Considering how big of a change this is for barbarians, is there any chance they can get rebuilds?

A +1 on this. Mighty goes from optional to highly desirable and that can make a big difference trying to shuffle such into a build.

Personally I’d vote for no for rebuilds. I’ve got a mighty rage dwarf that’s sitting at 25 str and 21 con... he gets a little buff with this change but I can’t see every barbarian on Aerlith suddenly learning how to mighty rage- lol. There were basically zero out there yesterday. If you want to play with the new toy... make a new character. You got this!

Bunnysmack wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:45 pm That's the main concern, yes. If this was a defense-focused class, the ability to just shrug off CC/Debuffs constantly would be less problematic, but barbs are nearly universally two-handed str built DPS machines that hit hard enough to rip people in half. Add in weapon master, or just lean heavily on the immense 2h damage, and the fact you can't stop a barb becomes a huge problem.

Barbs were already the masters and mistresses of the shotgun strategy (no need for windup, immediate smackdown in PvP), but now they also have lost their primary drawback (will/reflex based CC).

The best DPS barbarian builds won't qualify for this, unless Arelith also changes which Rage feat is needed as a pre-req for Mighty Rage. Mighty Rage requires 20 Barbarian levels, and the most dangerous shotgun barb builds usually have like 16-17 from what I've seen.

We might start seeing 20/7/3 Barbarian builds though, which'd be pretty funny.

Even without weapon master (which will shoot the DPS up to MEAN levels), your average level 30 2h build with 20 class levels dedicated to Barb will conservatively run about 45 damage per hit while raging, not counting boosts from fighter feats or essences. At 6 APR (BAB progression +haste+ThunderingRage) that's 270 damage per round, along with them likely using a weapon that has either a large crit range or a high crit multiplier (even without weapon master, X3 damage means an average crit of 135 before essences).

Now, yes, that is DPS prior to reductions from the target's DR, DI, AC, and Concealment, but regardless, it's a rather scary amount of damage for something that will shrug off defensively cast spells/abilities meant to debuff and CC to keep the giant rage warrior out of someone's face.

I'm less concerned about this being used by weapon master, as it would be exceptionally diffficult to fit in all the ability scores, feats, and class levels required to have Mighty Rage plus Weapon master 7; But doing this build with epic weapon specialization and Barb 20/Fight6/Rogue4 would do plenty of damage while taking advantage of the ability to be immune to lasting debuff/CC.

Flower Power wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:37 pm

Bunnysmack wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:45 pm That's the main concern, yes. If this was a defense-focused class, the ability to just shrug off CC/Debuffs constantly would be less problematic, but barbs are nearly universally two-handed str built DPS machines that hit hard enough to rip people in half. Add in weapon master, or just lean heavily on the immense 2h damage, and the fact you can't stop a barb becomes a huge problem.

Barbs were already the masters and mistresses of the shotgun strategy (no need for windup, immediate smackdown in PvP), but now they also have lost their primary drawback (will/reflex based CC).

The best DPS barbarian builds won't qualify for this, unless Arelith also changes which Rage feat is needed as a pre-req for Mighty Rage. Mighty Rage requires 20 Barbarian levels, and the most dangerous shotgun barb builds usually have like 16-17 from what I've seen.

We might start seeing 20/7/3 Barbarian builds though, which'd be pretty funny.

Correct. It still requires 20 barbarian. We are leaning against a -relevel, but if one were offered, it would only be for characters with >= 20 barb levels.

Bunnysmack wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:21 pm Even without weapon master (which will shoot the DPS up to MEAN levels), your average level 30 2h build with 20 class levels dedicated to Barb will conservatively run about 45 damage per hit while raging, not counting boosts from fighter feats or essences. At 6 APR (BAB progression +haste+ThunderingRage) that's 270 damage per round, along with them likely using a weapon that has either a large crit range or a high crit multiplier (even without weapon master, X3 damage means an average crit of 135 before essences).

Now, yes, that is DPS prior to reductions from the target's DR, DI, AC, and Concealment, but regardless, it's a rather scary amount of damage for something that will shrug off defensively cast spells/abilities meant to debuff and CC to keep the giant rage warrior out of someone's face.

I'm less concerned about this being used by weapon master, as it would be exceptionally diffficult to fit in all the ability scores, feats, and class levels required to have Mighty Rage plus Weapon master 7; But doing this build with epic weapon specialization and Barb 20/Fight6/Rogue4 would do plenty of damage while taking advantage of the ability to be immune to lasting debuff/CC.

You are making a huge assumption that you are gonna hit someone 6 times a round. If you can hit someone consistently 6 times a round, you're going to win that fight waaay before mighty rage ever came into play.

This was specifically added to buff non-wm barbs, so if it makes them a little stronger, it's working exactly as intended.

garrbear758 wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:26 pm

Bunnysmack wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:21 pm Even without weapon master (which will shoot the DPS up to MEAN levels), your average level 30 2h build with 20 class levels dedicated to Barb will conservatively run about 45 damage per hit while raging, not counting boosts from fighter feats or essences. At 6 APR (BAB progression +haste+ThunderingRage) that's 270 damage per round, along with them likely using a weapon that has either a large crit range or a high crit multiplier (even without weapon master, X3 damage means an average crit of 135 before essences).

Now, yes, that is DPS prior to reductions from the target's DR, DI, AC, and Concealment, but regardless, it's a rather scary amount of damage for something that will shrug off defensively cast spells/abilities meant to debuff and CC to keep the giant rage warrior out of someone's face.

I'm less concerned about this being used by weapon master, as it would be exceptionally diffficult to fit in all the ability scores, feats, and class levels required to have Mighty Rage plus Weapon master 7; But doing this build with epic weapon specialization and Barb 20/Fight6/Rogue4 would do plenty of damage while taking advantage of the ability to be immune to lasting debuff/CC.

You are making a huge assumption that you are gonna hit someone 6 times a round. If you can hit someone consistently 6 times a round, you're going to win that fight waaay before mighty rage ever came into play.

This was specifically added to buff non-wm barbs, so if it makes them a little stronger, it's working exactly as intended.

I'll admit, when starting this thread I was not aware that mighty rage had a higher requirement for class levels that the other barb epic rage feats lack; it was only once that was pointed out a few posts up that I realized the higher entrance fee involved with Mighty Rage.

Knowing that the intent was to specifically keep this OUT of the hands of weapon masters does make it seem less scary. I guess I just think of how a shadowmage, feylock, or any other caster that depends greatly on CC/debuffs to keep a melee fighter out of their face can defend themselves against auto-restorations every 30 seconds.

However, maybe it is too early to make a feedback thread on this, as the update did just drop today. I'll stop commenting on this for the moment to see how things pan out on live in the coming weeks. Sorry Garrbear.

Bunnysmack wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:42 pm Sorry Garrbear.

Don't apologize for feedback. It's always possible there's something I missed that someone else catches. It's happened before and I'm definitely willing to go back to the drawing board if something doesn't pan out how I imagined.

Svrtr wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:40 pm Barb gets free passive damage, less free DR but still free DR, at least 7 regeneration on account of needing 19 CON and at most 13 regeneration, and free DI as well as 4 dodge AC at level 20, along with increasing the duration of rage and free CC removal every 30 seconds for 1 feat.

I think you're misunderstanding, it's +1 regen per con bonus damage (so typical 21/6/3 barbarian would have 6 regen)

"- Grants regen = 3 + con mod damage bonus (5 at 16 barb, 6 at 21, 7 at 23, etc.)"

Freyason wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:04 am

Svrtr wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:40 pm Barb gets free passive damage, less free DR but still free DR, at least 7 regeneration on account of needing 19 CON and at most 13 regeneration, and free DI as well as 4 dodge AC at level 20, along with increasing the duration of rage and free CC removal every 30 seconds for 1 feat.

I think you're misunderstanding, it's +1 regen per con bonus damage (so typical 21/6/3 barbarian would have 6 regen)

"- Grants regen = 3 + con mod damage bonus (5 at 16 barb, 6 at 21, 7 at 23, etc.)"

This is correct.

Freyason wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:04 am

Svrtr wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:40 pm Barb gets free passive damage, less free DR but still free DR, at least 7 regeneration on account of needing 19 CON and at most 13 regeneration, and free DI as well as 4 dodge AC at level 20, along with increasing the duration of rage and free CC removal every 30 seconds for 1 feat.

I think you're misunderstanding, it's +1 regen per con bonus damage (so typical 21/6/3 barbarian would have 6 regen)

"- Grants regen = 3 + con mod damage bonus (5 at 16 barb, 6 at 21, 7 at 23, etc.)"

Ah, my apologies I had misread this.

Still, it is still quite a feat to take, and I still stand by saying that barbarian is rather overtuned as a class, or else then other classes may be undertuned if barbarian is not.

Prestige Classes don't have to be inherently better/more powerful than other classes - if that's how you're defining whether or not something is over/undertuned, that's not a great metric. Prestige Classes just have to be sufficiently different in their skillset.

It is more so how much barb gets, but most of all it is that rage is an instant action. Barbarian can fill a fair few niches without much investment beyond stats and do better than most other class in similar regards.

If rage was made not an instant action I would rescind my words, but instant cast terrifying rage, an extra APR, 10 extra damage for free for 21 levels while one handing, free DI, free DR, and now fairly constant CC removal is a fair bit. Ill admit, I like DD as well and wish to see better for it or that it filled its niche better, but barb can in more than a couple regards do what DD does on an equal level or arguably better for lest investment while also still having damage does lead me to believe that barbarian is overtuned in compared to other strength based mundanes in many regards.

I'm not quite sure I understand how the 'ticks' of the CC removals work. Do they trigger every 30 seconds started when they you get hit by CC? or when you click rage? For now, I'm going to assume that timing your Pray and working around this cooldown will be quite easy. With that in mind, I think 30 seconds is too short time. Between this, -pray, clarity potions and the fact a raging barbarian with gear has high saves and actually need to fail those rolls to begin with, this practically CC immunity for really long time. I also think with the new requirement it is perfectly within reach for barb/wm which havent exactly been desperate for buffs. We should keep watch on this timer as more half-orc barb/wms reach level 30 in the near future.

AstralUniverse wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:05 am I'm not quite sure I understand how the 'ticks' of the CC removals work. Do they trigger every 30 seconds started when they you get hit by CC? or when you click rage? For now, I'm going to assume that timing your Pray and working around this cooldown will be quite easy. With that in mind, I think 30 seconds is too short time. Between this, -pray, clarity potions and the fact a raging barbarian with gear has high saves and actually need to fail those rolls to begin with, this practically CC immunity for really long time. I also think with the new requirement it is perfectly within reach for barb/wm which havent exactly been desperate for buffs. We should keep watch on this timer as more half-orc barb/wms reach level 30 in the near future.

Mighty requires 20 barb

garrbear758 wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:27 am

AstralUniverse wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 5:05 am I'm not quite sure I understand how the 'ticks' of the CC removals work. Do they trigger every 30 seconds started when they you get hit by CC? or when you click rage? For now, I'm going to assume that timing your Pray and working around this cooldown will be quite easy. With that in mind, I think 30 seconds is too short time. Between this, -pray, clarity potions and the fact a raging barbarian with gear has high saves and actually need to fail those rolls to begin with, this practically CC immunity for really long time. I also think with the new requirement it is perfectly within reach for barb/wm which havent exactly been desperate for buffs. We should keep watch on this timer as more half-orc barb/wms reach level 30 in the near future.

Mighty requires 20 barb

Not too convenient but entirely possible to wm it anyway. Not saying we have a huge problem here. Just something to keep close watch over.