Arelith

Hello there,
I would like to address a few things with regards to Assassins, but mechanically and theoretically.

I have played two Assassins now, and three Rogues. I guess I have a thing for stealthy, small weapons type of characters! That being said, I'd like to point something out, a rather large difference between the two. First, I feel like I can absolutely kill someone easier on a Rogue than an Assassin. Rogue bombs are amazing. Maybe too amazing? Thats another topic. However, given that I do not have access to Rogue bombs on an Assassin is quite a shame. Sure I get class skills like Darkness, Imp. Invis etc, but even those need a rework I think. As a non-caster class, having said Assassin abilities be instant cast would be a start to helping. I've been interrupted trying to cast Imp. Invis. I'm not going to gear and skill myself for Concentration just for that. So, if mechanically possible within the NWN client, why not make them instant cast? It may sound strong, but its really not. I can instantly cast Imp. Invis off a wand, which sort of renders mid fight Assassin Invis moot.

Now lets take a Tanglefoot Bag VS Darkness/Ultravision. And lets say I come up to a guy with a big sword. There is a 99% chance he is going to simply leave the Darkness area if he isn't Ultravisioned. Now, hit him with a Tanglefoot Bag? Now I have a fighting chance. Yes I can use a Tanglefoot Bag currently, but the DC is nowhere near a Rogue's DC of roughly 35.

Now what about fighting a Drow Cleric with vampires? I can't toss an Exploding Holy Flask like a Rogue can. Huge disadvantage.

I understand that they are two different classes, but they play similarly. And, having to have a PrC token for a class that feels less deadly seems a bit off to me. I spoke to a DM about it, and *Death Attack* is basically *Sneak Attack* but more brutal. I'm not sure Death Attacks can be changed, but maybe they do a little more damage than a Sneak Attack? 1d8? Though again, not sure its even possible.

Maybe a simple suggestion would be since Assassins, Zhents, SD's, etc all get several Rogue-like bonuses, maybe they could get the rogue toys as well? Or at least the Mundane ones with Rogue-like DC's?

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The other aspect of it is the actual execution of things regarding other Assassins and the Guild Hall. I have reached out via the message boards in the Hall, only to have it fall on deaf ears. Are Assassins out there that do NOT use the Hall? Because at the moment it feels sort of empty. And that is a HUGE detriment to anyone wanting to pursue a large contract.

Lets say for example a city guard somewhere has a bounty on their head. Its complete suicide to try to off said person in the middle of a town alone. So, working together with another Assassin would be a huge boon, yes? Well, seeing as the Hall is rarely ever used, I'd like to suggest a few things maybe?

1. An Assassin scrying system. Now this wouldn't have to be an actual scrying method, but maybe you could hire a spy that takes 'x' amount of IG time to reach a specified target, then returns with 'x' hour old information on their location. Not quite as good as a Scry, but then again most of, if not all Assassins are melee. They have a zero percent chance to scry, unless they make themselves known to a scryer. Maybe even a telescope similar to the one atop the Heartwood Tree? Except we would have to point it all over to find said target? This way, it forces the target to be part of SOME sort of RP. And if they want to not be seen whilst knowing they have a target on their head? They could disguise, use imp invis, abjuration ward, etc.

2. The way it is right now, my character has met quite a lot of people, and it feels like those with bounties are either not playing, or simply just pay off the fine, negating any actual Assassin RP. This negates the entirety of the Hall. Maybe impliment some sort of system where the Assassins get paid if the contract is paid off? Right now we sort of get the shaft if its paid off. Which is quite okay if the target doesn't want Assassin RP. They have the option to pay it off. But at least those who actually use the Hall could benefit somewhat by getting a small cut of a paid off contract. Afterall, they pay off the contract so that we, the Assassins don't get to them. Its not about the coin, but I think some sort of kickback might bring some other player Assassins out from hiding.


As I mentioned above, having played two Assassins now and a few Rogues, I do think some things should possibly be changed about the Assassin as a class, as well as some tweaks to the Hall. I'd really like this system to work instead of people circumventing it and giving jobs to other classes and appointing their own individual bounties. Its such a neat system that I feel is being very underutilized.

Agreed, It was very difficult to complete any assassination. I know this is not a bad thing, but it did make the bounties less of a scary thing. A lot of people either payed them off, which is fine, or dint worry because there were so many that went nu-attempted. A bounty of 10 or 20k did not seem worth the risk or time. Even though i would still try to find them just for the RP and sport. Add in the lack of play time overlap, and the number of times i try to find someone that is not on or leaves the server because there play time is up. I know this is part of it, but it makes an assassin much less able to complete a Contract.

I do think the Telescope would fix that, or A snitch like they had in Sencliff who can only be found in the guild, and charges a fee for information on ware a target is (even if delayed) would allow that RP to start faster.

When they added the writs to the guild there was a lot of RP that was generated, but died off quickly. Having someone people could go talk with, would allow for more interaction as they cross paths in the guild hall.

Assassins abilities really shine in PVE, but ethereal vision, darkness etc aren't much vs a player who knows what they're doing. I see people laugh off assassin contracts because they know there's no PVP threat.

I'd suggest... Open the assassin class so you don't need a DM token. Make access to the assassination guild itself require a DM token and application but open it up to any class (with evil alignment as the only requirement.) So it would be a place to network and take contracts and it's open to characters with all sorts of skills to bring to the table, not just a bunch of identically built assassins.

Are you using the poisons and all of that? Those are extremely good, especially with the DC increase.

Rogues get a DC 35 grenade thats single use, you get to swing dc 24 poisons that last for 10 minutes, completely bypasses NeP (if the wiki isn't lying), and doesn't go away on successful hit.

The DC35 bomb is single use but multiple can be spammed until it lands, which doesn't take long against a WM or a spellcaster. And said item keeps them rooted and flatfooted. Just seems very strong in comparison.

Personally, I think its necessary for the assassin's guild to be disconnected from the PvP meta for it to have any place on the server. The moment the assassin class become competitive in the meta is the moment the sever is swarming with assassins being given blank checks to PvP anyone they want to, because someone they've never met with 20k in the bank decided they wanted someone else they've never met to die. Personally, I'm happy with where assassins are right now: well below the pvp meta, but still a bit scary and, given the right amount of prep/team work, still very potent.

A discussion about how frustrating it is to fight rogues is a topic which will last 10 pages and end with a thread lock after someone insults someone elses' mother. But I think as for assassins... the devs seem pretty happy to have decided on: "fine, you get to no-RP pvp, but don't expect your class to be good at it". And I'm kinda OK with that decision.

But I think as for assassins... the devs seem pretty happy to have decided on: "fine, you get to no-RP pvp, but don't expect your class to be good at it". And I'm kinda OK with that decision.

I think thats a terrible idea. Lets have a PvP centered, supposed to be pinnacle of murder class just...not do that.

Drak wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:26 am

But I think as for assassins... the devs seem pretty happy to have decided on: "fine, you get to no-RP pvp, but don't expect your class to be good at it". And I'm kinda OK with that decision.

I think thats a terrible idea. Lets have a PvP centered, supposed to be pinnacle of murder class just...not do that.

I'm going to be brutally honest here:

I don't think Arelith's playerbase could responsibly handle having a functional, viable Guild of Assassins in its current form.

I played an assassin who tried to invigorate the system for a good while, and it failed. High-level players will either pay off their bounties or take the precaution of staying in closed doors or being constantly accompanied by IC friends, and low-level players will avoid logging on, get someone to pay the bounty for them, or in extreme circumstances cheese the system by logging only to do dungeons, not roleplaying with anyone and rushing to get their daily dose of XP and then log off. I've tracked people IC who have done this and it's eternally frustrating.

Being an assassin means accepting that you pretty much can't make contracts fun, because your only shot tends to either be dumb luck or by utilising borderline meta tactics to get an edge on players who will cheese as much as possible to avoid you. Making long, detailed plans and incorporating others seems against the spirit of the system, as the more time you waste increases the chance that they've paid it off or logged already. Want to organise an event with someone for their own attempted assassination, even broadcasting that you're willing to intentionally fail just to cause an event? Get ready to be told no by most people, and at worst put on -notells with your target then avoiding you and taking more precautions than before. Reporting this kind of stuff scarcely matters, because it's often incredibly difficult to prove someone is actually cheesing it - and who am I to tell someone when to log off, and how much time they should be playing on a character?

Ironically, the best assassin RP you can get is by explicitly avoiding the class altogether and taking contracts from people personally as any other class. You can get meta'd pretty easily as a class-assassin in a number of ways which makes people instantly suspicious of you OOC, and even a player who's fantastic at IC/OOC separation will be affected by this, especially if they know that they have a non-guild contract on them. Let alone a guild one. Not to mention the stupid comments you get from people who blatantly meta without knowing the rules, or not caring about them, saying stuff like, 'oh, what an interesting fighting style, it seems familiar' and 'i know ur an assassin i recognise the constant ethereal visage'.

I've no idea how to solve the issue of assassins being irrelevant and unfun to play. All I can suggest is that people temper their expectations and choose the class for PvE reasons, and avoid the Guild altogether save for the rare circumstance you get lucky. It's what everyone else appears to do.

Drak wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:26 am

But I think as for assassins... the devs seem pretty happy to have decided on: "fine, you get to no-RP pvp, but don't expect your class to be good at it". And I'm kinda OK with that decision.

I think thats a terrible idea. Lets have a PvP centered, supposed to be pinnacle of murder class just...not do that.

Would you be happier if your assassinations required RP before you could attempt anything? Because that's kinda the balancing problem as I see it, the no RP PvP stuff gives you a pretty significant edge already.

If you're mechanically competitive and the other guy has to spend a minute talking to you first before he can throw the first punch while you can pop off whenever, fully buffed and warded, then you're probably going to win. Unless they're constantly vigilant, ofc.

I am, by no means, a mechanical or balance-minded person, but I think the OP is completely missing one of the biggest boons of Death Attack, and that is the chance to paralyze someone. (unless Arelith removed that, not my department)

Anatida wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:35 am I am, by no means, a mechanical or balance-minded person, but I think the OP is completely missing one of the biggest boons of Death Attack, and that is the chance to paralyze someone. (unless Arelith removed that, not my department)

Death Attack Paralysis is tricky to actually get to trigger at all (since it's very easy to make yourself mechanically 'in combat' if you know there's an assassin around) and the DC is low enough that the majority of decent builds are only going to fail on a 1 or some similarly low roll; it's definitely not something to build or plan around, or to rely on since you're fishing for 1's on an ability that you're probably only going to get to use once per encounter at the very start of the encounter if you catch them completely unawares.

1.) Make Contracts unable to be paid off and no notice to the player OOC.

2.) Make Death Attack paralyze chance apply to every sneak attack, not just the first round.

3.) Increase Poison DC even further.

-- Would this fix it?

My thoughts on Assassins and balance:

1. I think just about everyone agrees IC and OOC that 10k is a pitiful sum of gold to assassinate someone over. Increase the minimum investment on bounties to 100k and people will treat them with the gravity they deserve. If some group really wants to remove a settlement leader they can just keep placing 10k bounties, on the flipside it's ridiculously easy for the settlement leader to just keep paying off 10k bounties, so you end up with two groups just repeatedly throwing small sums of gold at an NPC and then no RP or PVP ever coming from it. If it was 100k people would only place bounties on targets they really wanted dead, and for the targets having a bounty on their head would be more than a minor annoyance.

2. DC 24 is pitiful for a poison which should be the ultimate trump card of assassins. Level 10 characters from Skal will make that save half the time. Everyone has 30-40+ saves these days except for a few people using meme builds. Increase the DC's of poisons to something where the average player at level 30 with decent gear still has at leasta 50% chance of failure. Right now just about any PC I make could eat poison all day long and probably not even get a belly ache.

Seeing the posts that people are so scared of the assassins above, GOOD! Isn't that the point? There are a lot of concern over assassins being able to assassinate! If i had to guess right now, i would bet at most 1 in 10 contracts are attempted. (Probably more like 1 in 20) And even less succeed.

The Dev team put a lot of work into the rules and writs around the class, and it was fun as heck to play, but i only had a few shots at contracts all the way through level 30. For anyone that has played an one, you know the scrutiny it takes to get a token. It is not an easy thing, and requires planning and DM approval. I was always conscious of the hammer coming down if i didn't follow the rules layered out by the DMs and it truth, it works very well. Then, finding, planning and getting the opportunity to execute (Pun intended) the plan was rare. Having a Snitch or a way to gain info on a target would be the best thing to generate the RP around the contract.

There is always a way out of a contact as well, by paying it off, staying hidden. in town or around friends. In all honesty, having a contract on you should be as much fun as accepting one, and could be RP'ed just as much, with just as much fun. People who just dont want to RP it out - Pay it off! If it isnt payed off, RP it out and have fun.

I agree that poison DC is too low.

Some of the poisons simply have too much utility to make them balanced with a higher DC. Any significant boost to poison DCs would probably have to be coupled with a significant nerf to the poisons you actually want to use, either in their effects or duration. They're 'balanced' as it is by being a fishing trip.

Improved invisibility and darkness isn't the bread and butter of the assasssin class. It's the death attack paralyze. If you build around it you can have a very powerful character with almost zero counter to it outside of exploiting knockdown on yourself to keep your character in combat ( and getting banned in the process ).

Increasing the DC on the poisons would be extremely overpowered as there is zero counter to being blinded on every single hit. The power of poisons is the 5% chance for it to trigger, which seems very unlikely to happen, but it does happen -- and when it does, all those sneak and death attacks will absolutely annihilate anything that's not sneak immune.

Also please someone make a high INT drow crossbow person and abuse the hell out of paralyze and stealth, thanks.

Like so many other dnd abilities death attack is very binary. Either “game over” or “nothing happens”.

Some sort of debuff either as a secondary effect or a replacement with higher dc or on succesful sneak attacks or such might be a better design space to explore. Like the swash debuffs for instance

poison DC is not too low. Eyeblast is a ~10 minute blind. It would be crazy if the DC were much higher than it is presently.

Others have mentioned this already, but the "No-RP PvP" is the true strength of assassin. Unless they are a pale master, your target is going to have a very bad day if you sneak up on them when they are unwarded and unwarry. Now, sadly, the fact that the system takes efforts to point out to them that they are the subject of an assassination...Is a bit of a problem. I think this ambush allowing power would put Assassin in a better place for its purpose if the system message was far more discreet, rather than floating text that appears on every sever-hop or login.

That being said, the ability to ambush is VERY strong. I heard at least on story of people using a 25caster/5sin dip so they could pursue guild contracts but murder the target with sudden, overwhelming, and unblockable evocation powers (No-RP Hellball+Greater Ruin would be VERY unfun for assassination targets). Part of the reason for the DM application requirement, I believe, is to stop people from just materializing behind someone, with 0 dialogue, and slapping them with a 375 damage harm. The ability to totally side-step RP prior to a fight would allow for a LOT of frightening outcomes if more potent builds could employ the effect.

Pincushion wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:46 am I played an assassin who tried to invigorate the system for a good while, and it failed. High-level players will either pay off their bounties or take the precaution of staying in closed doors or being constantly accompanied by IC friends, and low-level players will avoid logging on, get someone to pay the bounty for them, or in extreme circumstances cheese the system by logging only to do dungeons, not roleplaying with anyone and rushing to get their daily dose of XP and then log off. I've tracked people IC who have done this and it's eternally frustrating.

This is the reason that I began to ignore the contracts altogether, people will know and they will avoid it forever until anyone who was interested in the contract just gives up because it is completely unfun.

Ninjimmy wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:12 am

Drak wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:26 am

But I think as for assassins... the devs seem pretty happy to have decided on: "fine, you get to no-RP pvp, but don't expect your class to be good at it". And I'm kinda OK with that decision.

I think thats a terrible idea. Lets have a PvP centered, supposed to be pinnacle of murder class just...not do that.

Would you be happier if your assassinations required RP before you could attempt anything? Because that's kinda the balancing problem as I see it, the no RP PvP stuff gives you a pretty significant edge already.

If you're mechanically competitive and the other guy has to spend a minute talking to you first before he can throw the first punch while you can pop off whenever, fully buffed and warded, then you're probably going to win. Unless they're constantly vigilant, ofc.

That's already how the Rules of Engagement works for assassins (http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Assassin). You have to interact somehow with the target first and then you can attack them at any point within 24 hours. So let's assume that the target does not do the things outlined above by Pincushion. You interact with the target, either by sending them a speedy, giving a lowbie a note to hand to them, whatever it may be. Now the target knows they are actively being stalked and will surround themselves with friends, hide behind lock doors, or simply log off until the 24 hours is over and then, voila! Threat avoided.

This system seemingly rewards outside of the guild thinking. Imagine a player run assassin faction, one that isn't restricted to players who take the token, that only takes contracts face to face. This does not alert the target to their imminent danger, and anyone who is not mechanically an assassin, can find any number of ways to RP with the target to secure the contract. Now you can make the argument that the same is possible within the contract system, but the fact that it is on a board (and I think the person gets a notification in the system messages window if I'm not mistaken) makes it really easy to avoid any unfamiliar faces.

Skarain wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:43 pm 2.) Make Death Attack paralyze chance apply to every sneak attack, not just the first round.

Yes please!

Anatida wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:35 am I am, by no means, a mechanical or balance-minded person, but I think the OP is completely missing one of the biggest boons of Death Attack, and that is the chance to paralyze someone. (unless Arelith removed that, not my department)

The thing about the paralyze is you have to not be seen first, and the DC in comparison to their save makes it like a %5 chance to go off, lessened by other factors.

Drak wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 6:35 pm

Anatida wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:35 am I am, by no means, a mechanical or balance-minded person, but I think the OP is completely missing one of the biggest boons of Death Attack, and that is the chance to paralyze someone. (unless Arelith removed that, not my department)

The thing about the paralyze is you have to not be seen first, and the DC in comparison to their save makes it like a %5 chance to go off, lessened by other factors.

Beamdog nerfed the paralyzation in the first EE patch. It used to go off for every hit in the first flurry of combat, and now only goes off for the first hit in combat period.

I don't believe your average PC casually sits on base 33ish fortitude in order for it to indeed be a 5% chance assuming the DC is 35 which your average assassin should be getting. With 18 assassin levels and 30 INT ( which is not an impossible task gear wise ) however you can pump it up to 38 at which point only fully geared CoT and divine builds can reliably resist.

Everybody else however automatically fails the check and will need to blow up their -pray ( which few even do end up using anyway ).