Arelith

This is one spell that served a pretty great balance for an effect that offered no save. It was useless against mind-immune/Mind-warded targets, its effect was only 1d4 rounds (so, potentially, the effect would only be as long as your casting time to cause it), but it was reliable in a meta that is increasingly filled with unassailable unisaves and CC immunity.

I can see why the saving throw was added, someone spamming scrolls of Scint Pattern would be pretty annoying (they'd be hemorrhaging thousands of gold to do it, and imposing confusion only slightly longer than the scroll-use time, but they could do it), but having a saving throw essentially makes this spell pointless to use. The effect is just too small, too short, too easily warded against. Spending an 8th circle slot to make someone confused for 1d4 rounds is just not useful when DC-based effects are so woefully inadequate of late.

Now, if the confusion was longer, or caused some sort of collateral debuff, then it might be handy. Maybe do something like Word of Faith, where a shorter effect occurs if they make the save, and a longer effect occurs if they don't.

As it stands, there is no reason to use this over anything with a will save and a standard duration on the CC it imposes.

Rare Feylock Player wants to know your location.

I've talked extensively with some friends of mine that are avid feylock fans, and even been tempted to make one a few times, but the conversations always end with the understanding that they are only situationally useful in PvE and PvP (a LOT of Arelith's content involves mind-immune enemies). At the end of the day, there is a reason why we see so few feylocks and so few enchanters.

Savelessly confusing people and making them kill themselves on a caster's Mestil's should not be a thing, and I'm honestly glad it no longer is.

Good ridden.

It's unbelievable to suggest that a saveless confusion, AOE or not, is anything but ludicrously overpowered. It's in a far better state now than it was before, objectively.

Bunnysmack wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:23 pm This is one spell that served a pretty great balance for an effect that offered no save.

Got about this far into the OP, concluded it's parody, stopped reading.

The spell was already easy to defend against, all it cost was 3 seconds and <400 gold for a clarity potion.

I get that will is a weaker save, but I think few builds on this server are regularly threatened by a DC 38 (10 + 8 + 6 foci + 14 int) will save. With the short duration of Scintillating Pattern, this spell is now pretty useless as explained above.

A couple other balancing suggestions might be to make it single target or to throw a cooldown on it so it can't be spammed. There's really no reason to take this now unless you're planning on fighting lower level characters.

Scurvy Cur wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:48 pm

Bunnysmack wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:23 pm This is one spell that served a pretty great balance for an effect that offered no save.

Got about this far into the OP, concluded it's parody, stopped reading.

As opposed to Harm and WoF? No, I didn't mean this as parody. Disagreement and debate I welcome; dismissive insults are less useful.

As stated in my post, if the spell is overtooled according to a consensus of developers, then sure, a save is warranted. But the spell's only merit was that it was saveless, so lacking any additional tweak makes it an impotent 8th circle spell.

Touch attack vs damage (capped, defensible with a lowbies spell, ac, concealment)

1 round blind (I have opinions on this one as well)

Vs saveless (bugged!) Multiround confusion?

Drowboy wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:18 pm Touch attack vs damage (capped, defensible with a lowbies spell, ac, concealment)

1 round blind (I have opinions on this one as well)

Vs saveless (bugged!) Multiround confusion?

Scintillating Pattern is extremely defensible, as I mentioned earlier! A clarity potion, which are easily available to buy, will block this. The 9 second (not 1 round) blind cannot be defended against, only cured after hit.

Saveless CC for an average of 15 seconds is considerably more powerful than WoF or Harm. Even an epic spell like Hellball only lasts 3 seconds.

The save is not coming off.

While my personal opinion was that the spell was incredibly strong, i don't think that just attaching a save to it was a good solution.
The spell went from overpowered to heavily overshadowed by other 8th circle spells. Perhaps changing it's effect would've been a better alternative? Something along the lines of a 1d2 rounds of daze or something like that? The spell would retain it's reliability (it would still be a guaranteed hit as long as your target isn't mind immune / warded) but the effect would be a lot less punishing. (It would force a clarity potion or a scroll of lesser mind blank instead of a pray)

TroubledWaters wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:51 pm The spell was already easy to defend against, all it cost was 3 seconds and <400 gold for a clarity potion.

Sure, so you just wait out the clarity potion and cast it later while clarity is on CD, then you either auto-win the fight or you force out their Pray at the very least.

TroubledWaters wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:51 pm I get that will is a weaker save, but I think few builds on this server are regularly threatened by a DC 38 (10 + 8 + 6 foci + 14 int) will save. With the short duration of Scintillating Pattern, this spell is now pretty useless as explained above.

I agree that this spell isnt very useful now, but I still think this 'chaos shield treatment' was necessary. You dont leave something imbalanced in the game even if your only current alternative is to see it useless instead, you nerf and you worry about buffs later, because it was fricking broken and I recall we even talked about it on the public B&M discord when you brought it up as a strategy on low CL spellswords to end fights quick and clean and I already at that point thought "So it just forces Pray out of the enemy that easily? that's kinda lame".

TroubledWaters wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:24 pm The 9 second (not 1 round) blind cannot be defended against, only cured after hit.

Lets also mention the huge elephant in the room here. Wof is blind, not full CC. you can run away from your enemy and you can remove it instantly from your entire party with a relatively cheap potion. Wof is really, really poor point of comparison in this discussion.

DangerDolphin wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:38 pm Saveless CC for an average of 15 seconds is considerably more powerful than WoF or Harm. Even an epic spell like Hellball only lasts 3 seconds.

The save is not coming off.

Thank you and I concur. I couldn't believe my eyes when someone told me there was a saveless spell that confuses people. I am extremely glad it's no longer a thing.

If ANYTHING is ever saveless, it should have an attack roll if it is just a damaging effect, or it should last for 1 round or less if it's any kind of debilitation or crowd-control. That's my personal feeling on it.