Arelith

Testing out a few things,

Epic Bard taking the necromancy thing in loremaster results in three zombies.

Not sure if it scales with wizard or sorc lvl etc. If not, I think it should.

But, I think it should scale with bard lvls/any magic class and give mummie lords or so.

anyway, kinda Y/N on dev side would be neat so I know if the feat is worth it.

It should scale with character level, imo, otherwise it's 100% useless - it doesn't grant any increased undead tiers (despite the feat description inferring it, flavour text wise). Otherwise it's just a no-CL CGU/day, something that could be replaced by scrolls, or a whole suite of items that have daily uses of undead animation.

I'd suggest having what it does essentially be:

If below level 21, use the Loremaster's Character Level in place of their regular UCL for purposes of undead spells.
At 21, convert their UCL to Tier 6 (similar to Mummy Dust). Do not give them Tier 7s.

Kuma wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:36 am It should scale with character level, imo, otherwise it's 100% useless - it doesn't grant any increased undead tiers (despite the feat description inferring it, flavour text wise). Otherwise it's just a no-CL CGU/day, something that could be replaced by scrolls, or a whole suite of items that have daily uses of undead animation.

I'd suggest having what it does essentially be:

If below level 21, use the Loremaster's Character Level in place of their regular UCL for purposes of undead spells.
At 21, convert their UCL to Tier 6 (similar to Mummy Dust). Do not give them Tier 7s.

+1

This is just an oversight. I'll fix it to be basically what Kuma said.

I am also working on an approved suggestion that will add a -command for esf necromancy / secret necromancy to make those feats more enticing. It will probably be awhile before it's done, and exact features are still tbd, but this will be an rp feature rather than something that will give mechanical power. The best estimate I can give you on it is soon(tm).

garrbear758 wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:03 pm This is just an oversight. I'll fix it to be basically what Kuma said.

I am also working on an approved suggestion that will add a -command for esf necromancy / secret necromancy to make those feats more enticing. It will probably be awhile before it's done, and exact features are still tbd, but this will be an rp feature rather than something that will give mechanical power. The best estimate I can give you on it is soon(tm).

@Garrbear758
Could you please do the same thing with -ward duration?

AstralUniverse wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 1:20 am @Garrbear758
Could you please do the same thing with -ward duration?

Yes. Anything else that's buggy with loremaster? I thought I got them all fixed already but apparently not.

The dominate one is as buggy as the focuses it's emulating, to the point that it kind of seems there just because all the other spell focuses had it. Seems like a trap secret at the moment, at least SF Enchantments give other bonuses. Maybe remove it til double doms works? Even then I can't see any use for it whatsoever.

Is Teleportation meant to give Teleport AND Create Portal, or just the latter? I've seen multiple answers on it. And if caster level impacts how scry is detected (I've no idea how that works) maybe worth taking a look at. But that one you probably already did when added, lmao

It just gives teleport create

garrbear758 wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:03 pm This is just an oversight. I'll fix it to be basically what Kuma said.

I am also working on an approved suggestion that will add a -command for esf necromancy / secret necromancy to make those feats more enticing. It will probably be awhile before it's done, and exact features are still tbd, but this will be an rp feature rather than something that will give mechanical power. The best estimate I can give you on it is soon(tm).

Your estimate of "soon(tm)" applies to the fix of ucl for loremasters necromancy or only for the "new stuff"? Or you will bundle the two? Same question about tyrantfog zombies being horrid, will it come before the new features or it will be a megabundle? Sorry for being annoyingly curious hehe, I'm planning to create a toon around it once the ucl fix hits

Cheers, glad to see necromancy getting some spotlight.

The fix will be soon. The necromancy epic feature will be soon(tm).

Understood! Thanks Garr!

garrbear758 wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:37 pm The fix will be soon. The necromancy epic feature will be soon(tm).

Hey thanks for the fix!

However it wasn't applied (or didn't work?), on PGCC. Figured I would let you know

Kuma wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:51 am The dominate one is as buggy as the focuses it's emulating, to the point that it kind of seems there just because all the other spell focuses had it. Seems like a trap secret at the moment, at least SF Enchantments give other bonuses. Maybe remove it til double doms works? Even then I can't see any use for it whatsoever.

For Lore master :-

I 2nd this one. This guy seems a little useless and I don't see an application where it would be used as you already need to be enchantment focused, and have access to those spells for it to work. If my goal is to use dominate creature/monster I'd be focused on that already. I'd say just remove it, or replace it with a 10 minute CD Dominate anything living spell?

The necro one is also meh. Again no one is going to take it. I have no idea what to replace that with though.

I could see fey-pact warlocks using it as they have infinite dominate person but no access to ESF. Similar for bard though no infinite cast. So a bit niche but that's fine IMO, not like you lack other loremaster secret choices.

Scylon wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:49 am The necro one is also meh. Again no one is going to take it. I have no idea what to replace that with though.

I will! It gives access to (questionable) summons to non-summons classes. It's niche, but totally usable.

It summons mummy warriors (I asume). They are rather weak and not worth it. I suppose it can be a RP toy, but there are more functional builds where you can get the same "feel".

I hopped on the PGCC to see what sort of undead the build gained and it doesn't seem to work still, though maybe it needs another reset. Was running a bard/loremaster and still saw starter zombies whether pre or post epic.

I think it is okay to have varying choices that don't all have to be equal. For "my game starts at level 30 and combat is my thing" 3 mummy warriors isn't going to be a top choice. For someone else having 3 level appropriate undead from level ~10 to 20 may make the game much more fun to play. Also unlike a choice like tribal barbarian you're spending 1/5th of the features of a 5 level class on it as opposed to like 90% of maybe 24-27 levels.

Unless I misunderstood Garr, you shouldn't get mummy warriors at level 21+ but Mummy Lords.

Garrbear referred to the new esf necromancy command he/she is working on. No confirmation regarding mummy lords at lvl 21, from what I read.

Garrbear wrote:I'll fix it to be basically what Kuma said

Kuma wrote:I'd suggest having what it does essentially be:

If below level 21, use the Loremaster's Character Level in place of their regular UCL for purposes of undead spells.
At 21, convert their UCL to Tier 6 (similar to Mummy Dust). Do not give them Tier 7s.

Hence the Mummy lords cheers!

Oh wow. That does sound like lvl 21+ will be getting access to mummy lords/vampires. Isn't it incredibly powerful to give those summons to mundanes who invest in loremaster?

As is, every other Greater Secret offers access to a epic command. Since necros are also receiving a new command, maybe mummy lord/vampire tier summons is a little too much.

Otherwise, for the cost of a Greater Secret, those who choose necromancy would be offered the normal esf command + the benefits of a Epic Spell (Mummy Dust).

The requirements to get that are no joke and a real "optimal build denier" for mundanes. Most of the time you will be hurting yourself a lot by going loremaster.

16 int might keep you away from some epic feats.
1 less feat can, in certain builds, be unaffordable/really painful (#weaponmaster).
1 class slot and 5 levels that do not do a lot for you in terms of martial prowess, and doesn't give you tumble.
Social stygma (let's not forget that... it's real)
Big buffing cost because it doesnt come from your spellbook. Unless you want 3 vanilla, no buff/spellfocus undeads.

All in all, it is powerful yes (in pve), but it better be, it opens up class diversity. Mundanes trying to squeaze loremaster at the cost of many other possibilities, means diversity. Will you go weapon master or loremaster? If it would be "mummy warriors" then we would be back to a no brainer: it is a non-choice, no one will take loremaster for that boon (rp aside).

It's my opinion at least

There are mundane builds with 5 loremaster levels. Of course, there is a cost. But it's very much possible to create one while remaining viable. One such build is in both the wiki and discord.

Also, the class does have benefits in terms of martial prowess (see AB and AC secrets). You only sacrifice 1 AC and a feat, all things considered. Plus, increased caster level in your scrolls and wands, which you can use to ward your potential mummy lords/vampires. So they wouldn't be unviable in either PvE or PvP.

But the peculiarities of the class have already been discussed in another thread a couple of months ago.

What I was trying to say with my previous post is, the Secret of Necromancy is fine with the new ESF command Garrbear is working on. There is no need to add Mummy Dust on top of it.

For comparison, let's take a look at the Secret of Teleportation. It allows the creation of a portal, similar to the effect of ESF Transmutation, and that's it. Or the Secret of Evocation, which removes the blowback from Hellball and Greater Ruin, similar to the effect of ESF Evocation (and you don't get the Epic Spells Hellball or/and Greater Ruin with this Secret, on top of the normal benefit).

So there is little reason to also give the benefit of Mummy Dust if there is a new ESF necromancy command to be added soon.

WarriorMage wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:27 am So there is little reason to also give the benefit of Mummy Dust if there is a new ESF necromancy command to be added soon.

Lets not get too excited. that will all depend on what that ability is. if it is something that works in conjunction with spells or summons and is aweful on its own, then the proposed changes to give it a lesser mummy dust are still valid.

Edit - Personally I'm hoping for an extra summon (total of 4). and/or a chance for each one to be a tier higher if it is a wizard Necro focus. at 25% chance you are probably going to get an extra one in that case. you would be better off with UCL Level %.

Thus, if you are pure necro focused character you could get 4 dread mummys, or if you are a mundane with LM levels you will onlu ever get t6 mobs with 3 of them.

I think pale masters need a bone tossed their way, but only for epic ones. maybe an extra something at 16 and 20 that differs from the necro focused ones.