Arelith

So as to keep the other discussion on Scry on Scry, this is to delve into the mystery of why the information on the Deck of Stars and Auras remains FOIG information. Considering it's shown in the wiki as this cool perk you get, but until you actually invest in it you don't know what you're in for. Everyone knows how to block Scrying but most Diviners don't even understand all they have available to them.

Arelith Wiki wrote:Spell Focus: Allows a character see whether a character is "attuned" to Life, Death, Fire, Water, Earth, or Air along the usual information of the Right Click->Examine. Through trial and error association, a player may learn much about another character's habits and abilities from their attunement. Also allows a character to use the mysterious Deck of Stars item.
Greater Spell Focus: Increases information gained when using -investigate, Detect Evil, and other things.

I believe its to keep an aura of mysticism around divination. Once EVERYONE knows what it does everyone will know how to manipulate it and use it to their advantage against someone who can view it.

The skill itself (which can be gained through equipping various items) pierces all forms of disguise and can make disguising impossible for people with unique auras. Some players if they knew how they were gaining such they would avoid doing it to keep a mechanical benefit that lets them keep their disguise.

It can be frustrating but it gives a goal, something to learn in game, rather than glancing over at the wiki every time you need to double check how an aura of XXX is gained.

mjones3 wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:56 pm I believe its to keep an aura of mysticism around divination. Once EVERYONE knows what it does everyone will know how to manipulate it and use it to their advantage against someone who can view it.

The skill itself (which can be gained through equipping various items) pierces all forms of disguise and can make disguising impossible for people with unique auras. Some players if they knew how they were gaining such they would avoid doing it to keep a mechanical benefit that lets them keep their disguise.

It can be frustrating but it gives a goal, something to learn in game, rather than glancing over at the wiki every time you need to double check how an aura of XXX is gained.

I gave up long ago, I bet quite a few others have as well. This is why all this focus is on Scry while Auras and the Deck of Stars are an afterthought. This is such an awesome ability, apparently, and nobody even understands it because if they did it would break the game? Why would Divination focus exist on ANY item in Arelith if that is the case? Once the player learns that knowledge they carry it across characters and they have the means to use this exclusive powerful ability that I don't even understand after investing 3 feats into? "Frustrating" doesn't quite do it justice, I thought it was weird and it turns out it's even worse.

My problem with deck of stars is that it is FOIG and no one is overly willing to share that secret. So the only characters that know it are players that know it and keep the information to themselves.

In fact, can any player jump on here and say yes they shared the secret at all?

I played a UD divination expert and he looked everywhere in game for the answer... never found it. He was especially displeased that the archmage of the Hosttower was less experienced than himself.

If there were books under disguised names like "The lizard and the bauble" that actually had the info hidden inside that would be cool. But that doesn't exist so bleh. My new character has a deck of stars and never uses it, has no clue what it does, and frankly doesn't care at this point...

Cause you have to ask the right player at the right spot at the right time, and hope they actually give the answer.

That's very rude to your fellow players. I was taught it, and I've taught several people. Angela Amana has taught a lot of people and has held classes on it, a bunch of old players are willing to teach. This dynamic does pose an issue that if secret information isn't taught to new people, it's lost. But it's very rude to assume that nobody is willing to teach it, that people hoard the information. But I'll also say that, a lot of people aren't interested either. Have you ever tried finding someone in-game to teach it? People who are interested in learning about divination often get directed towards people who do know, I've had people directed to me in the past. But like I said, there really aren't many who ever try to learn.

Security_Blanket wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 12:11 am This is such an awesome ability, apparently, and nobody even understands it because if they did it would break the game?

It won't break the game but it will ruin auras/deck of stars. Let me give an example.

To gain an aura of goodness you need to give 10 puppies a cookie.
To gain an aura of vileness you need to kick 10 puppies.

Big Bad Evil Guy kicks puppies all day, its an integral part of his character. In order to help his disguise he gives them cookies so he's not seen as a puppy kicker. He knows this because he read some books that tell him how the 2 basic aura's work. But he's a BBEG he can't help but give the puppies oreo's and they die from eating chocolate. This gives him an aura of vile-goodness and he appears as the Chocolatier in the Deck of stars. He doesn't know why his aura is that way it just is and he can't figure out why he appears in the deck of stars either because no else has figured it out. He can spend time trying to learn in game if he either gets the feat or acquires the items.

Or he can read the wiki and understand how to avoid anything that makes him stand out without any interaction or investment of feats/gear.


Yes its frustratingly hard to figure out, I've tried on 2 characters myself now and been taught a ton just by asking rando's in the street. Its not a worthless ability, use it in conjuncture with -investigate/detect poison. With divination feats it tells you a ton of information that I'm not sure is FOIG or not or I'd share the extra bits I've noticed it give. When you get certain information it truly narrows down who bashed your fixtures.

It's just weird that something that is part of your character should be something totally unknown to them. Two feats invested only to be left scratching your head. If people are making a Diviner then they would probably like to know what they're investing in, what options are available to them. People are investing however many hours into their character, by that same reasoning other abilities are known.

Even if it's widely known, I don't know that everyone will shift their behavior to throw off the Deck of Stars/Auras. What is stopping from some veteran player that learned the secret on their Diviner back in the day, making a new character that isn't a Diviner but has access to a couple of items and with their secret info? Once you know it, you know it, then you can ALWAYS use it to your advantage by either using said gear or taking said action to throw off the unknowing Diviner.

Knowing how to block Scry was also FOIG information, EVERYONE knows how to block Scry. I would argue that making it open knowledge could add some mysticism to it. If folks are aware of what a Diviner might glean from just looking at them, then it forces other players to be wary of hanging out too much with a Diviner if they have something to hide.

It's only a 1 feat investment to get full use out of the deck of stars and auras. No feats if you just get the fairly common "Eye of Savras" necklace that gives the feat for free. I'd say that's a fair investment (practically none) for having a cool and impactful but not powerful foig mechanic. In fact, this is one of the few foig mechanics I actually like. Unravelling it took me years across multiple characters and it's still a fair deal of speculation that clashes with what other people have found out. It's a goal to strive towards that can't just be accomplished at the click of a button.

Nitro wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:07 am It's only a 1 feat investment to get full use out of the deck of stars and auras. No feats if you just get the fairly common "Eye of Savras" necklace that gives the feat for free. I'd say that's a fair investment (practically none) for having a cool and impactful but not powerful foig mechanic.

The fact remains that this is information held by fewer people than the whole. Diviners are actually trying to be Diviners but they can get outshined by some punk with a necklace and the OoC know-how.

Nitro wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:07 am In fact, this is one of the few foig mechanics I actually like. Unravelling it took me years across multiple characters and it's still a fair deal of speculation that clashes with what other people have found out. It's a goal to strive towards that can't just be accomplished at the click of a button.

"Years across multiple characters", as in you had to take what you learned on another character and apply it to the new one and you're still not 100%. Not everyone is interested in solving riddles or chasing after achievements in games. But in this, you're hamstrung into having to find out in-character what your abilities can do, even as an innate caster you need to be taught. Why was the prevention of Scry not policed in this matter? I learned in-game but then I see it shouted by players left and right. Diviners don't get to know how to be Diviners but everyone gets to know how to block them.

Security_Blanket wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:25 am Not everyone is interested in solving riddles or chasing after achievements in games.

Then don't. It's not super impactful, it's just flavor. It's the same as learning the secret to entering the obsidian asylum or temple of Talona. Neat if you figure out how to do it, but you can completely skip it at no loss to your character if you don't have the inclination to put in the effort.

There's tons of information that is only available through trial and error in game. Which ores can spawn in what dungeons, where certain herbs grow, how to get into certain secret areas and so on. The deck of stars is the same, a neat little secret you can choose to work towards if you like, and otherwise completely ignore because it's not integral to being a diviner.

Though I will say Auras are very easy to learn with some basic trial and error. Keep looking at people and/or talking with them and you'll quickly notice a pattern in which ones have what auras, which you can use to narrow down the triggering criteria.

TBH, I can see a plethora of very valid reasons why the information regarding the deck should be unclear.
It's probably better to leave it as a guessing game rather than giving players a tool to uninteractively expose secret information about characters with 100% certainty. At the same time open information would inevitably lead to OOC decisions aimed at evading omens.

On the other hand, it's all a little too nebulous IMO and an increasing number of toons seem to dismiss it as some sort of "fortune teller nonsense". Which in on itself would be fine, but I am of the impression that this is the case for OOC reasons more often than not at this point.

Furthermore, I've noticed some some possible issues with the deck:
- the aspects can be tracked for a very long time (RL months even years), regardless of whether the characters are still around or not.
- sometimes the deck seems to revert to a previous list of aspects randomly (like, what it was a few RL months ago), then jumps back to the current list again a few days later. This appears to be prompted by server resets.
- the figures displayed on the card with the aspect do not seem to get updated at all.
- the deck can rat out secret races like rakshasas and vampires. I wonder if that is really intended though.

I don’t know if this is still the case but it used to broadcast a message to all around the diviner, when you fruitlesly fiddled with the deck.

I stopped experimenting because playing a practiced diviner who fumbled helplesly with a bunch of tarot cards didn’t really fit.

Although it does make me want to make a clumsy and helples diviner some day.. gnome or firbolg maybe?

People first learned what these abilities did by deduction. Go and deduce.

Ork wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:38 pm People first learned what these abilities did by deduction. Go and deduce.

There is only so much accuracy that you can achieve by deduction and observation. This leaves a lot of room (probably too much) open to interpretation.

IMO where this mechanic seems to fail is that it aims to bridge the two seemingly incompatible playstyles. On one hand you have omens, most of which settle on characters of achievers involved in extreme feats of excessive grinding and on the other hand you have your average socializer idly loitering in the town square playing with some cards trying to figure out what they mean.

It's more fun to learn than to be handed all the answers. Not everyone keeps it a secret. Roleplay will prevail for you if you want to learn it ICly.

Open interpretation is fine. We're not talking about a mechanic that assists your character in combat. We're talking about a mechanic that is by and large fluff. You might find by saying the WRONG thing, you'll actually find out the truth faster.

As one of many diviners, I can say that divination chars are THRILLED to help teach people IG about the auras, deck, etc.

Because that's why we did the legwork to find out more about it in the first place.

It doesn't make sense that BAM suddenly epic divination feat means you know all this information if you didn't rp to get there. Think of it as the ability to actually retain the info (if hadn't learned it yet), or understanding of how to use what you learned in more potent ways. It's not just sudden brain blast.

There are so many PCs with the purpose of teaching others about magic or the IG world, or exploring them, and it seems cheap to ignore all of them just for sake of wanting quick answers.

I'm seeing some really inconsistent arguments for why these mechanics should stay secret. On the one hand people are saying that it's pointless, so who cares whether it's a secret, eg.,:

Ork wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:49 pmWe're talking about a mechanic that is by and large fluff. You might find by saying the WRONG thing, you'll actually find out the truth faster.

Nitro wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:44 am It's not super impactful, it's just flavor.

On the other hand, people are saying it's a really consequential feature that needs to be kept secret or it will be abused:

mjones3 wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:56 pm The skill itself (which can be gained through equipping various items) pierces all forms of disguise and can make disguising impossible for people with unique auras.

Party in the forest at midnight wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:43 pm The deck can out secret races like Rakshasa, it's extremely powerful.

I'm open to having my mind changed about this, but it would be helpful if those on the other side could argue from a consistent set of positions. Are there meaningful consequences to people learning how it works, or no? That's what I'm not seeing a clear stance on.

Consequential to roleplay is not always consequential to mechanics. Owning a quarter is consequential to roleplay, but most people might not know why. We don't have to spell out fluff for players to access the environment.

Eira wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:01 pm It doesn't make sense that BAM suddenly epic divination feat means you know all this information if you didn't rp to get there.

The exact same argument can be made for every gained ability. You think it makes more sense that a player that knows all about the Aura's and the Deck OoCly can simply put on an amulet then "BAM" they know all they know, even though they're just a Commoner class? Or how a Palemaster can kill an Orc in the field then suddenly unlock the knowledge of how to summon a Dracolich? A character that actually became an epic Diviner is on the same level as a character of any class that happens to be wearing that necklace. Oh no they can't Scry, but hey, everyone knows how to block Scry, but they can make use of the Deck of Stars and Auras regardless of class, regardless of skill, regardless of race, just from wearing a necklace.

I'm a bit confused on what people are wanting through this thread, just a wiki explaining everything about scrying?
Given that this mechanic really doesn't have mechanical weight?

DM Rex wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:04 pm I'm a bit confused on what people are wanting through this thread, just a wiki explaining everything about scrying?
Given that this mechanic really doesn't have mechanical weight?

A wiki article that explains everything about the:

Deck of Stars items, and what each part of it does (including the various aspects)

+

One about the attunement (fire, earth, etc.) and how one becomes one of those things.

I don't see a need for everything to be explained. The basics of most mechanics, classes, even starter areas and expectations I get. But this isn't like an old style SNES with a walkthrough on every single mundane secret and lore of the server.

At some point we have to draw a line and say 'hey go in game and find it'.

Security_Blanket wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:00 pm The exact same argument can be made for every gained ability.

Well, now, I think that is self-explanatory about what makes a really good roleplayer, don't you think?

I'd be in favor of an article that mentions that these things exist, but doesn't give what they all exactly mean, per se. Seeing as Aspects are very rare and limited in number of how many can exist at once, the mechanical impact is rather minimal and can be a joy to learn about for those people who actually like to learn about it.

So because it doesn't give you an edge in PvP and only gives you an edge in RP it doesn't need to be explained? People do play for the RP and people that know this apparently get a bit of an advantage versus those who don't, and again, you don't even need to be a Diviner to get it. You just have to equip a necklace. No real investment, people are competitive and you can expect the "must-win" mentality to continue in every way it can. By not only limiting the knowledge but allowing it to be used by anyone that can put on the necklace you're creating something that can be abused. You may not win any fights but you can win in so many ways.