Arelith

can they not be

They are not supposed to be a known factor in the Realms whatsoever. Even if on Arelith this isn't quite the case it's only because of these continued in-module references that have made them a known factor.

As far as the vastest majority of people and PCs know, the Imaskari empire collapsed entirely. This is enforced by a planet-wide spell that causes people to think this unless confronted with evidence otherwise. This is in the Underdark sourcebook.

please

This is mostly Irongron's area - but the part specificaly mentioned is what underdark races are allowed within.

Ultimatly if the Deep Immaskeri arn't mentioned, then they arn't allowed in Guldorand. Yes you're right, in theory they shouldn't be on there because they shouldn't be known about. But players do know about them, and won't neccesarly roleplay /not/ knowing about them. And because of that, that means they'll be effectivly banned along with drow ect.

Personaly I don't feel it's a big deal to have them on the list.

I'm curious what would complicate things in making them otherwise in all other contexts display as humans?

Cybren wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:15 pm I'm curious what would complicate things in making them otherwise in all other contexts display as humans?

I think they already show as humans when examined, even for high lore characters. So technically, people can't recognize Imaskari if they don't want to be recognized and mentioning the subrace on that sign isn't really necessary.

Some people might even apply the WYSIWYG rule here and believe that the explicit, written mention of this obscure race counts as having been "confronted with evidence", as Kuma put it, which would give everyone a justification to investigate the true fate of Imaskar.
I think it'd be better if only RP with Deep Imaskari could lead to that.

I agree with Kuma, personally. I understand that this would make them functionally banned, but being identified as a denizen of the Underdark /should/ make any normal surface denizen at the very least wary, if not downright suspicious or hostile.

No matter the race. Gnomes and dwarves with deep gnomes is perhaps the only exception to this, but even then, I feel that the Underdark races that are allowed to walk the surface do not really roleplay any nuance of it. It's not really an issue of the Deep Imaskari in particular, they are rare after all, and they can pretend being humans, but overall I cannot help but feel that right now deep imaskari, deep gnomes and even duergar tend to be de facto surface races. And that is not good for the setting.

The GrumpyCat wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:29 pm This is mostly Irongron's area - but the part specificaly mentioned is what underdark races are allowed within.

Ultimatly if the Deep Immaskeri arn't mentioned, then they arn't allowed in Guldorand. Yes you're right, in theory they shouldn't be on there because they shouldn't be known about. But players do know about them, and won't neccesarly roleplay /not/ knowing about them. And because of that, that means they'll be effectivly banned along with drow ect.

Personaly I don't feel it's a big deal to have them on the list.

It is a massive deal in terms of setting and lore. It 100% flies in the face of established canon.

Let whatever happens happen. Including, yes, persecution if people are led to believe they are an Underdark race on par with the drow (as opposed to, say, svirfneblin), and I say this as the player of a Deep Imaskari.

But players do know about them, and won't neccesarly roleplay /not/ knowing about them.

I really don't think we should lean into that fact, though. We should trust the playerbase to make that call. We've already had the server trend towards this: removing "Deep Imaskari" from tracks and NPC descriptions, for instance.

Cybren wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:15 pm I'm curious what would complicate things in making them otherwise in all other contexts display as humans?

this is already the case in every other context except for NuGuld's charter. so- nothing.

I think its very unfair to say that the Deep Imaskari are unknown on Arelith. I've had 2 characters now who have been to the enclave on Skal and learned as much about them as the NPC's there share.

Multiply that by however many people have been to it in person, who have more than likely spread word of them, and its not unreasonable at all that the place connected to Skal by year round ferry has them mentioned on the charter.

mjones3 wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:41 am I think its very unfair to say that the Deep Imaskari are unknown on Arelith. I've had 2 characters now who have been to the enclave on Skal and learned as much about them as the NPC's there share.

Multiply that by however many people have been to it in person, who have more than likely spread word of them, and its not unreasonable at all that the place connected to Skal by year round ferry has them mentioned on the charter.

It was my understanding, that unless the people in question were told about Imaskari or Imaskar by an Imaskari themself, the spell would continue to do its whole Suggest thing for them to forget about it.

So they could learn about it in Skal, but spreading it further wouldn't work.

I'm inclined to agree with Kuma. As a player of a Deep Imaskari character one of the most interesting aspects is the struggle between secrecy and acceptance in societies. Deep Imaskari mentioned in an npc made lawboard risks this struggle becoming binary.

... I mean, wildcard option, mention Imaskari but also a bunch of "conspiracy" races like Mothman and Reptilians, so it's less "Imaskar is real", more "Ahh, we let Cryptid Carl write the bylaws. Thaaat was maybe a mistake"

They're obscured in the inspect and disguise stuff because of lore. It follows that some census writing NPC would see one and put down human too.

Kuma wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:02 am this is already the case in every other context except for NuGuld's charter. so- nothing.

yeah so I guess I just don't get why DI need to be specifically called out in the charter if we're already supposed to just treat them as humans

The GrumpyCat wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:29 pm Ultimatly if the Deep Immaskeri arn't mentioned, then they arn't allowed in Guldorand.

Maybe the trick, then, is to say what isn't allowed. Anything which isn't on the list, would therefore be permitted.

I'm actually just finding out now about a worldwide spell to cloak imaskari and I have no idea how I'm supposed to handle this now.

I guess it's a cat out of the bag situation for me, and probably many many others.

To the OP though: it does seem like it would be consistent with the rest of the mechanics already established if they weren't listed.

Removed reference as of next reset.

Irongron wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:18 am Removed reference as of next reset.

<3