Arelith

I don't use Discord, but thanks for the offer.

The point here isn't that I don't agree that HiPS and WASD-Attacking are gamebreakers.

But let's look at the past few months worth of updates for rangers.

Archer bonus damage nerf (halved)
Ammo damage nerf (-1/3 on average)
High-end ranger gear nerf (made up for with a better spell selection - while most rangers sit on 2-3 spellslots per circle)
Ranger HiPS nerf removal (which was already limited before its removal)

Meanwhile, ranger cookies that make them interesting are given to other classes (mapping, tracking, etc.)

The reasoning behind these changes are exploitable mechanics.

Wouldn't it be a nicer rationale to outrule those exploits and make them reportable? Wouldn't it be way fairer to pick out the bad apples instead of hitting classes with constant nerf-queues that make the game less enjoyable?
Attack while WASD-running? Repeatedly breaking action queues with HiPS? One warning. Next offense, temporary ban. Next offense, permanent ban. It's pretty easy.

If that's not a route you want to go -maybe because it's difficult to track or provide proof-, and you're going to keep limiting the damage people can do while abusing game mechanics by continuously nerfing classes, it would be nice if the classes you nerf at least get something in return. For those of us who play fair.

I would also like to say; if you don't outrule those exploits, and keep pushing nerfs, it's possible that those builds will soon depend on using those exploits to remain viable. With the way you currently handle these challenges, the takeaway here could be that that's what you're aiming for.

It would be an insane amount of workload to investigate and crack down on every reported case of mechanics abuse for mechanics that are broken in the game. Just proving that they had happened would basically be impossible without video evidence.

Also, difficulty in people even knowing what to look for. Prior to the nerfs mentioned above, I didn't even know that either exploit was in play.

I always thought that moving cancelled attack actions (even for ranged), and that HiPS only interrupted opposing actions if the stealth check beat the detection check. People who haven't played classes that have exploits often don't know that such exploits exist, and therefore the pool of people who would even recognize the conduct is somewhat limited.

It would be an insane amount of workload to investigate and crack down on every reported case of mechanics abuse for mechanics that are broken in the game. Just proving that they had happened would basically be impossible without video evidence.

The HiPS changes were in no way related to reported incidents. As there weren't any.

I was referring to the OP's hypothetical that they were made against the rules.

Dex Ranger's are in a pretty darn good place, especially considering how poor they were in the vanilla state for years.

The cookies going to other classes are pretty rare and niche.

The expanded spellbook for the Ranger is a very nice quality of life improvement; I would suggest enchanting a set of gear for when you rest with + Spell slot for the spells you want. You can have 1 spell per equip able item when you rest. This will let you max your zoo buffs as well as buff with your hour/level spells pretty easily and you can save your spell slots for things like Blade Thirst, Aid and FoM.

Every nerf ranger got in recent times is very justified and made me happy (with the exception of the nerf to two-sided weapons that arent quarterstaff). They also got Barkskin so STRangers actually got buffed by 1 ac. Also, saying that all the cookies rangers get are obtainable by other classes is a bit unfair. Rangers actually have good base skill points to afford their relevant skills and they are still a full bab class with a excellent source of damage. If I want to make a tracker, I can think of no better class to do this than ranger, mechanically and thematically.

AstralUniverse wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:38 am Every nerf ranger got in recent times is very justified and made me happy (with the exception of the nerf to two-sided weapons that arent quarterstaff). They also got Barkskin so STRangers actually got buffed by 1 ac. Also, saying that all the cookies rangers get are obtainable by other classes is a bit unfair. Rangers actually have good base skill points to afford their relevant skills and they are still a full bab class with a excellent source of damage. If I want to make a tracker, I can think of no better class to do this than ranger, mechanically and thematically.

I agree but I think that more than ever, non-div STRangers are lacking the sauce. Just decent AB, too dispellable for being effectively mundane, except for the convenience of book casting (and having to cast to use blade thirst), and lolnoAC. Upsides are a great skill pool with lots of points, the free path feats, and great damage. I haven't played melee Rangers extensively because I haven't wanted to play a divine one, or a dex ranger/monk, so I'm prepared to have underestimated their power a bit, I guess. But compared to the dex equivalent, it seems the strengthers have worse reflex (and probably Will due to the monk Wisdom + Qstaff synergy), lower APR, and lower AC, traded for better damage. The resulting difference in soloing expenses (and in which runic dungeons are soloable) also means the strengthers' equipment, funds and QoL will likely be worse.

I hope the new feats in the works will help, though I have always been interested in taking GSF's like Transmutation or going for AD:Abj on Rangers, and locking important features behind feats will make (respectively) that QoL + ease/space when gearing, or dispel resistance boost harder to fit.

P.S. I have always wanted to do a 2H Aragorn Ranger but it's a waste to build one that way.

I'm sure I sound like George R. R. Martin by now, but new feats for STRangers (and fighters) are still coming. Dex ranger I feel is already in a good place and doesn't need any buffs.

garrbear758 wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:10 pm I'm sure I sound like George R. R. Martin by now, but new feats for STRangers (and fighters) are still coming. Dex ranger I feel is already in a good place and doesn't need any buffs.

If you really want to sound like George R. R. Martin, you could make people love STRangers and Fighters, and then proceed to kill them; laughing maniacally as you drink the tears of your fans

Fargreze wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:46 pm
I agree but I think that more than ever, non-div STRangers are lacking the sauce. Just decent AB, too dispellable for being effectively mundane, except for the convenience of book casting (and having to cast to use blade thirst), and lolnoAC. Upsides are a great skill pool with lots of points, the free path feats, and great damage. I haven't played melee Rangers extensively because I haven't wanted to play a divine one, or a dex ranger/monk, so I'm prepared to have underestimated their power a bit, I guess. But compared to the dex equivalent, it seems the strengthers have worse reflex (and probably Will due to the monk Wisdom + Qstaff synergy), lower APR, and lower AC, traded for better damage. The resulting difference in soloing expenses (and in which runic dungeons are soloable) also means the strengthers' equipment, funds and QoL will likely be worse.

I hope the new feats in the works will help, though I have always been interested in taking GSF's like Transmutation or going for AD:Abj on Rangers, and locking important features behind feats will make (respectively) that QoL + ease/space when gearing, or dispel resistance boost harder to fit.

P.S. I have always wanted to do a 2H Aragorn Ranger but it's a waste to build one that way.

I play a str 27/3 ranger/bard , and it is quite allright in PvE. With the new spells, and craft wand, loot far outweigh expenses on dungeon runs. His AC is mediocre at best, but imp expertise, +5 blade thirst and solid AB and dmg keep him alive.

I'd dread meeting a competent dex or div dip character in PvP though.

Bunnysmack wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:31 pm Also, difficulty in people even knowing what to look for. Prior to the nerfs mentioned above, I didn't even know that either exploit was in play.

I always thought that moving cancelled attack actions (even for ranged), and that HiPS only interrupted opposing actions if the stealth check beat the detection check. People who haven't played classes that have exploits often don't know that such exploits exist, and therefore the pool of people who would even recognize the conduct is somewhat limited.

Because it's been mentioned that some people aren't familiar with the WASD-Shoot technique, and why it works, I feel a bit of in-depth explanation is probably in order.

Basically, it boils down to the fact that NWN is only a quasi-real time game. It tacks a round based structure onto a real-time framework, and the way it does it is not quite seamless. Rounds, as most players know, are divided into three 2s segments called flurries. Attacks are delivered at the beginning of each flurry (so the 0s, 2s, and 4s mark in the start of what the engine considers to be the combat round). All attacks in a flurry are delivered simultaneously and instantaneously.

Archers can leverage this by engaging an attack command just long enough for the game to squeeze out a couple of shots at the top of the flurry and resuming the input of a run command. Done well, this results in arrows being fired out of the archer's back with a near non-existant break in their movement, as shown below. Properly executed, this means that archers can still keep up 2 attacks per round on enemies in pursuit without losing much if any distance at all.



The above is a throwaway level 3 archer, so I don't have enough APR here to get off 2 arrows in the first flurry, but the principle holds.

What this means in practice is that an archer with sufficient skill and enough time should win most 1v1s, at just about any damage level, so long as they WASD-shoot religiously and prioritize position over DPS (and I suppose so long as their opponent doesn't duck across a transition and lens). For this reason, I've long felt that nerfing archer damage past perhaps the first round of damage nerfs (complex templates were dumb and deserved every last thing that happened to them) has been a little misguided. Instead, I would have much preferred to see a micro-root (really a micro 99% slow to avoid flat footing) for about 0.5s or maybe a touch longer every time a ranged attack is made, to throw a stutter in the WASD-shoot technique. This, I feel, would target the really problematic parts of archers without really inconveniencing what I will (with the most non-disparaging connotation possible) call "casual players" who would like to play an archer without such an intense focus on wringing every last drop of efficiency out of NWN's janky flurry system as possible.

I share Surrender The Throne's misgivings about nerfing around the problem rather than addressing it directly. In the case of archers, I think a well-played one will be a threat at just about any conceivable damage level in an environment that lacks melee gap close, combat stickiness, and in which the WASD-shoot functionality remains unmolested. However, rather than give them a place in satisfying, decisive engagements, we're relegating them to "I hope everyone is ready for 10 minutes of chase and poke" territory. More broadly, this sort of nerf that only tangengially hits on the problematic features of a class just make players more reliant on what (at least in my opinion) are the actually troubling features of a class.

That said, I think dex ranger is in an OK spot right now, as are archers generally. I just wish the signal we were giving these players was not "To play this class, learn to abuse the engine".

Scurvy Cur wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:16 pm
... Instead, I would have much preferred to see a micro-root (really a micro 99% slow to avoid flat footing) for about 0.5s or maybe a touch longer every time a ranged attack is made, to throw a stutter in the WASD-shoot technique. This, I feel, would target the really problematic parts of archers without really inconveniencing what I will (with the most non-disparaging connotation possible) call "casual players" who would like to play an archer without such an intense focus on wringing every last drop of efficiency out of NWN's janky flurry system as possible.

+1

Scurvy Cur wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:16 pm Big Info

This. If the idea is to remove exploitable engine jank, then archers' movement should be in the crosshairs, too. But their generally poor AC means, in my opinion, that they would need additional ways to gain distance on a pursuer (other than landing Called Shots) in the event of a change. Just as long as free movement and damage become separated like they are for every other archetype. Perhaps a "Grease Shot" ability? A base movement speed buff for having a bow equipped (or having EWF: Missile)? Cross that bridge when you get to it.

There's some comments by developers in this thread here on the archery bit viewtopic.php?f=37&t=31930&start=25.

Let's try to keep this on rangers, please open another thread for more on archery movement.

I think rangers are in an okay place.

A strength ranger can do absolutely frightening damage, a dex ranger can use a level one spell to sneak better than a rogue while walking around with a sneak attacking pet and an archer with a powerful animal makes for an extremely well rounded character. They make decent switch hitters by taking the archery path and wielding a finesseable weapon because favored enemy and bane ot enemies apply to any weapon. Not to mention the expanded spell list. It could be worse.

However I do find them somewhat outperformed by other classes at almost everything.

Strength TWF builds do crazy damage but so do barbarians. As we all know barbarians can wear medium armor without losing their feats and they eventually get bonuses to AC. Not to mention the HP.

Dex melee builds function in a sort of roguish way but their damage with a dead pet is pretty "meh". As mentioned before the panther companion is excellent for this playstyle but they'll never get those special rogue feats like crippling strike or any of the other toys that make the class truly deadly and disruptive.

Archery is something I never played with in higher levels so I can't really comment on it other than that I don't exploit running glitches and the damage seemed mediocre.

All in all I think the ranger is very balanced at whatever it does. That's the class' chief merit and biggest problem: any ranger build I've attempted thus far has felt like a less potent version of something else with a wider pool of resources to fall back on. You're a weaker arcane archer with good buffing/utility spells and a pet. A crappier barbarian with traps. An underwhelming rogue who has more HP and relies less on scrolls because you can cast.

It's very hard to balance a generalist utility belt class. If they start reliably outperforming paladins in melee you can argue that they're OP because they can do all this cool skilly stuff too. If they do more damage with archery than a rogue or arcane archer you can argue that they're OP because they also have 10HD, full BaB, skills for days, an animal and a built in spell list. I'm not saying that rangers do outperform these classes at their respective roles, just demonstrating that they have to be somewhat blunted if they're to be a fair and balanced class. Most of us want to play a class that can have lots of fun toys and handle all sorts of varried situations but you can't do a little of everything and be great at everything.

While I'm not sure weather the latest nerfs werw justified or not I just felt like giving my two cents on why rangers generate so much controversy and disappointment.

I understand the desire to give rangers something to compensate for the loss of HIPS, but i really dont think its necessary. I never once used HIPS in a significant way on my dex ranger (pure laziness and grinding area choices), yet i absolutely bulldozed content. Now she gets +2ab (circumstancial), poison crafting (i believe), and is virtually undispellable.

Damn.

Personally, I think the added dispel resist is a little unnecessary (27/3 ranger/monks now even more of a pain, and I say that as a 26/4 almost-optimal ranger/monk). Nature sense also seems counter to the intent of the double-sided weapon nerf?

Use poison is nice, since iirc poison can't be applied to blunt weapons. No poisoned staffs fishing for 20s!

No comment on the STRanger feats.

Baron Saturday wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:14 pm
Use poison is nice, since iirc poison can't be applied to blunt weapons. No poisoned staffs fishing for 20s!

Another buff to the kama wielding svirf menace.

Baron Saturday wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:14 pm Use poison is nice, since iirc poison can't be applied to blunt weapons. No poisoned staffs fishing for 20s!

I have bad news for you.

Baron Saturday wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:14 pm Personally, I think the added dispel resist is a little unnecessary (27/3 ranger/monks now even more of a pain, and I say that as a 26/4 almost-optimal ranger/monk). Nature sense also seems counter to the intent of the double-sided weapon nerf?

Use poison is nice, since iirc poison can't be applied to blunt weapons. No poisoned staffs fishing for 20s!

No comment on the STRanger feats.

STR rangers could really use that dispel resist though as they're more likely to be something like 23 ranger, 4 fighter, 3 rogue (for example but they're not likely to be 27/3 anything). Maybe it could be tied to high constitution as well if worried about dex monk/rangers.

Just to point out the obvious, any nerf that does not explicitly target the dex/monk combo will hurt the non-monk combos even more. The monk dip is the problem, and that is what should be addressed.

TooManyPotatoes wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:21 pm

Baron Saturday wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:14 pm
Use poison is nice, since iirc poison can't be applied to blunt weapons. No poisoned staffs fishing for 20s!

Another buff to the kama wielding svirf menace.

It's a good point, but honestly I think that Svirfneblin's just being wildly overpowered is the real issue with anything relating to them - kama monk or not.

Unless Arelith does something special in this regard high dex characters can apply poison without the feat, the check is trivial for them so the feat only helps low dex characters. So seems properly targeted to me.

Agree with immediate above.

Also I think the poison skill for all Rangers is kind of nice just to depart Poison from being an 'evil' thing when it just doesn't have to be. Poison is no more evil than butchering all the wildlife everywhere you go, and I think Poison can simply just be nice as a sort of naturalist RP (maybe the poison isn't even painful to the victims?).

Also the poison check could already be easily worked around by carrying a poison immunity belt. Throw on the belt, poison weapon, take off belt. It's not a big deal I don't think. It's more QOL than anything.