Arelith

Spotting that it was requested that the topic be moved to its own thread to not derail the specialist thread - here it is.

Recently Word of Faith was removed from the Dread Mummy summoned in the Mummy Dust Epic Spell.

I'm not going to die on this hill (aka Mummies still have great PVE value), but it's a topic worth exploring and I don't personally like the change for a few reasons. I'll just itemize my thoughts.

1) The removal widens the gap between skills only to be used in PvP and PvE. Mummy is punished as even a remotely feasable summon in PvP. Forgetting to -vam after your adventure could end up getting you very killed in a sudden PvP situation where you hoped to get your PvP Approved summon out but instead got your easily kitable easily ignored PvE-bots.

2) AI is dumb. This is why we have the associate tool. Removing WoF still won't fix the fact that the AI is going to get stuck on every little pebble and pillar in a fight, it still won't fix your summons killing your allies when wierd things happen, and it won't fix the summons running off and gathering up as many mobs as they can to get your whole party killed. Balancing summons around people who don't use this basic tool seems like appealing to the lowest common denominator when we should be encouraging people to control their summons in the first place. Anyone using the tool already knows the Mummy rarely suffered from WoF issues, and when it did, it was easily fixed with a push of a key.

3) The Mummies are still going to be great in PvE, but I just don't see why there needs to be such a cavernous different between summons viable in PVP only versus summons viable in PVE only. In a tongue in cheek arguement: what's next? Can we just have the toggle more easily understood (-pvp and -pve instead of -vam and -mum?)

I saw it was mentioned that it was being considered, or at least desired, to remove all spells from all summons. Please, for the love of Ao, do not do that. Well over half the reason I've ever used a gate spell, or mummies, was strictly due to the spell they reliably cast right off the bat. Sure there's some spells that are goofy and totally unnecessary (I don't need my deva for a lesser dispel) for summons to have, but word of faith is neither. It is a critical spell for both PVE and PVP.

Honestly I can't really add anything new on top of the OP but it frames my sentiments also on this subject pretty well.

WoF should have had a savings throw 10,000 years ago and it beggars belief it still doesn't.

Hard agree.

However i will say id be fine with the change if the mummies were brought up to the same level as vampires to be PvP viable.

The issue then also falls on that this is a nerf, however small, to anyone who uses mummy dust and the only ones that get to make up for the loss is the slight chance to summon a second dread mummy, which now is basically just a buffed mummy lord.

The expression that comes to mind here is “a solution in search of a problem.”

I’ve used mummy dust for ages with zero problem. WOF made the mummies a bit more interesting compared to the superior vamps for pvp. Wonky AI casting seems to be more an issue with summons that have longer spell lists, not any summon with a spell.

Skibbles wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:22 am Balancing summons around people who don't use this basic tool seems like appealing to the lowest common denominator. . .

This.

There are other summons that cast spells and act the exact same way, I'm fine with those being removed from all summons honestly. But then that means you should give them back something in return. Also, unlike most other summons, people actually have to invest a feat to use the one summon that got nerfed.

I use player tool 1 all the time; it's my "F1" key and my side mouse key; I probably press it more than my left mouse button. This was still an issue with WoF and most spells (Cone of cold was a great example before it got removed too).

As mentioned, I very much disagree that this is a five hundred word thesis worthy nerf, but I'll follow along with this thread and see.

I think all summons should lose spells because they mess with their AI so badly. If they lose their target for a millisecond when trying to cast they'll just stand around in a gormless daze for a couple of rounds, and if you were trying to issue an order when they started casting they waste their entire action queue for the round, and then start trying to cast all over again. If we really want to have summons that do spellcasting, give them a sequencer.

I think mummy wof is very easy to manage once you learn how, and them losing it was a direct nerf

If there are issues with line of sight, you just move the mummy within it before casting

I believe you can intentionally forego wofing if you move the mummy into melee before clicking the enemy, as summons prefer to cast spells at range. this rewards you for good micromanagement of your summon, as you can move it away from the enemy before clicking them to fire off wof when you want to

Xerah wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 4:43 pm I use player tool 1 all the time; it's my "F1" key and my side mouse key; I probably press it more than my left mouse button. This was still an issue with WoF and most spells (Cone of cold was a great example before it got removed too).

As mentioned, I very much disagree that this is a five hundred word thesis worthy nerf, but I'll follow along with this thread and see.

The issue i see, and i am trying to put it as nicely as i can, because this doesnt come from a place of unappreciation for trying to fix an issue that people have as it is 10000% appreciated that dev work and time comes into trying to fix issues.


This is sort of the idea of "dont blame the hammer blame the carpenter"

While i sympathize that you have had issues with mummies. We have a thread full of people that havent had issues, perhaps the issue comes not from a lack of AI but a user input issue.


A dread mummy has 2 spells available to it.

1 fear aura, which it will engage the second it is ordered to aggro on target.


2 WoF, which it will engage the second it is within LoS and range of a target. It then seems to have a CD of between 2 and 3 minutes whereby it will cast again



Some of the issues encountered from my experience would and does cause issues with every summon and still effects the AI regardless of WoF or meleeing.

The AI gets caught on stuff. Its a reality of the game.

Removing WoF without increasing the relative power of the summon does nothing atm to fixing the issues all summons face.


On the face value of the removal it just looks like a nerf.


Counter point. If we wish to remove the issues facing summons with larger spell lists. Limit all summons to having 2 spells maximum

Summons need a nerf in general. Last time I was running mummies, I was literally able to afk farm with them from level 5 to 30 with remarkably little effort.

This change is great, and from reading ya'all comments it seems even more great. I personally agree with Zavandar that it was never much of an issue to play around that WoF cast and micro manage the summons with the associate tool. And I dont have a clever mouse with thumb keys these days and I liked that there's player-skill involved in that but on the other hand, I think summons in general are bonkers and any nerf to summons in any shape way or form will make me smile including this one.

I don't see how this change makes the dread mummy "more effective", as stated in the update thread.
WoF was a central feature of the dread mummy and removing it because of LoS issues that can be easily mitigated by using the player tool is a downgrade for this summon compared to others of the same tier. If LoS is such an issue, why not removing all spells from summons? For example Devas, they also cast WoF and have the same issue.

Might-N-Magic wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:05 am WoF should have had a savings throw 10,000 years ago and it beggars belief it still doesn't.

Nah. Not every spell needs to be a binary "save or do nothing". Sometimes a spellcaster should get a result just for successfully being allowed to get a spell off. In this case, the result is very easily healed off with readily available consumables.

We need more spells like WoF sprinkled into the spellbooks.

Mummies used to have at least a tactical purpose in PvP, but now they're a 'noob trap' like EDK compared to an alternative summon that the same ability can equally achieve after some FOIG - which is the most alarming thing now that I think about it due to how many threads we see nowadays about the advantages that veteran players have over new players.

Now we have a situation where an Epic Spell's true viability is further skewed to players that know the module well, and can easily unlock vampires, so not only is Mummy a 'noob trap' but newbies won't even be aware of the superior option in the first place to get around its lost capability in the only area Mummies already suffered in.

The reason Mummy was nerfed, to paraphrase, "was because the dev was in the area at the time and personally had trouble using the summon," and so I don't think we're looking at any further changes to any other summon soon. This is already kind of a wierd reason to suddenly change a summon - to make them personally more usable - when so many players seem to have no problem.

I'm assuming that any comments saying that all summons need to be nerfed, which isn't the topic, are tacit agreements that they too haven't had trouble getting WoF to work.

At the very baseline, if WoF won't be returned to Mummies, can the vampire stream simply be unlocked from the getgo so newbies can enjoy their -pvp setting too? If we're going to make each undead version only apply to one scenario it should at least be fairly distributed from the start.

I love my archon's WoF. I could see why it would be missed.

Skibbles wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:14 am At the very baseline, if WoF won't be returned to Mummies, can the vampire stream simply be unlocked from the getgo so newbies can enjoy their -pvp setting too? If we're going to make each undead version only apply to one scenario it should at least be fairly distributed from the start.

Can the vampire stream be sold in a prism? That seems like a good compromise between gatekeeping FOIG knowledge (keeping some things mysterious) and making the various toys accessible.

Blossom wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:26 am

Skibbles wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:14 am At the very baseline, if WoF won't be returned to Mummies, can the vampire stream simply be unlocked from the getgo so newbies can enjoy their -pvp setting too? If we're going to make each undead version only apply to one scenario it should at least be fairly distributed from the start.

Can the vampire stream be sold in a prism? That seems like a good compromise between gatekeeping FOIG knowledge (keeping some things mysterious) and making the various toys accessible.

That's a good question. I'm not sure!

Either way, as Vampire is now exclusively the only PVP option, I find it much more likely that the FOIG knowledge will just be distributed via discords and whispers until it reaches a breaking point and is simply shared freely similar to how [EDITED OUT] stopped being FOIG anti-scry about two weeks ago.

FOIG will simply be handwaved away due to its importance as a mandatory stream instead of sold as a high priced commodity.

The vampire stream can be easily put into a prism. It's just that selling it in a shop on the surface can be a little awkward for RP reasons.

Skibbles wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:57 am I find it much more likely that the FOIG knowledge will just be distributed via discords and whispers until it reaches a breaking point and is simply shared freely similar to how [REDACTED] stopped being FOIG anti-scry about two weeks ago.

It's still FOIG. The last time someone mentioned it explicitly on the forums a mod redacted it.

-XXX- wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:07 am The vampire stream can be easily put into a prism. It's just that selling it in a shop on the surface can be a little awkward for RP reasons.

Skibbles wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:57 am I find it much more likely that the FOIG knowledge will just be distributed via discords and whispers until it reaches a breaking point and is simply shared freely similar to how [REDACTED] stopped being FOIG anti-scry about two weeks ago.

It's still FOIG. The last time someone mentioned it explicitly on the forums a mod redacted it.

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=32438

It's plastered throughout this entire thread and still remains unredacted (though I was wrong - looks like it was about a month ago, not two weeks ago).

Edit further: I just re-read that entire thread, and yes it looks like the mod redacted it at the very end but not when it was directly referenced immediately in the first five comments and still remains. I'll just make an edit I guess, but that cat is out of the bag anyhow.

It's kind of what I mean though. It's so ubiquitous and mandatory in the game, usually as the only available option (like this topic here), that it's freely shared even on the forums in such high volume that it can be looked over. I feel like this only reinforces my point.

Skibbles wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:33 am It's kind of what I mean though. It's so ubiquitous and mandatory in the game, usually as the only available option (like this topic here), that it's freely shared even on the forums in such high volume that it can be looked over. I feel like this only reinforces my point.

No, frankly that's just your opinion. If a large chunk of the player base starts using an exploit, it's not a free license for you to do the same.
This is no different - just because some players might get away with spreading FOIG info over discord, doesn't mean that we should make the situation worse by doing it ourselves.

The last post of the linked thread couldn't be more clear - it's FOIG information. Stop spreading it OOC.

-XXX- wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:34 am

Skibbles wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:33 am It's kind of what I mean though. It's so ubiquitous and mandatory in the game, usually as the only available option (like this topic here), that it's freely shared even on the forums in such high volume that it can be looked over. I feel like this only reinforces my point.

No, frankly that's just your opinion. If a large chunk of the player base starts using an exploit, it's not a free license for you to do the same.
This is no different - just because some players might get away with spreading FOIG info over discord, doesn't mean that we should make the situation worse by doing it ourselves.

The last post of the linked thread couldn't be more clear - it's FOIG information. Stop spreading it OOC.

Skibbles wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:33 am I just re-read that entire thread, and yes it looks like the mod redacted it at the very end but not when it was directly referenced immediately in the first five comments and still remains. I'll just make an edit I guess, but that cat is out of the bag anyhow.

I did. I went back and changed it, and even said I changed it. Still doesn't change that it's right there on that thread in the first few comments, and at the time I read the thread none of it was changed so I came away from it thinking it was simply no longer FOIG (I actually commented in that thread at the time that I was shocked it was being said). My bad. Thanks for pointing it out. Hopefully someone can go through and fix up those other comments too.

There's so much cool stuff from NPCs and Lore and secret locations to explore and see in Arelith that it's ridiculous to me that actual mechanically advantageous powers are kept under wraps with the delusion that everyone is going to keep it a secret, and then double-down preferential changes are made that exacerbate the massive divide between people that know the game versus those who are new.

No I don't support or condone it, but that doesn't also mean I have to pretend it won't happen when it's less about the sense of wonder and more about simply attaining what everyone else already knows and has.

If it is my opinion that FOIG be actually interesting and fun discoveries instead of desperately needed mandatory mechanical powers just to be on an equal playing field to other characters that have known about it for years then I'll own the hell out of this opinion.

Well, it's not that much different for the necromancy streams either.

The vampire stream can be obtained through
FOIG means
a craftable prism charged by anyone who knows the stream

Not spoiling the FOIG part here does not equal gatekeeping.

Furthermore, while the dread mummy WoF removal might have resulted in the mummy stream becoming an inferior choice for PvP encounters when compared to the vampire stream, it's not by a huge margin. There's a very strong possibility that whenever somebody loses a PvP encounter, it wasn't because of them not having an access to the -vam stream at the time.


PS: giving the mummies some moderate SR so that they have a shot at resisting WoF scrolls might put the streams back on equal footing as far as their PvP viability is concerned IMO

Oh, yeah, well on that I definitely agree. It's not a huge margin, it's just the widening of a margin that didn't need to be widened.

AFAIK since forever the mummies have been like the 'vaguely better at PvE' summon with the vampires being the 'vaguely better at PvP' option while both of them could be used interchangeably for both scenarios. That's a pretty good sign of a good enough balance to me, which is why I'm astonished that this has been suddenly changed, based on preference, when for years they've both been more or less in a good spot.

Like I said from the get-go: it isn't exactly critical, but it wasn't necessary, asked for, and from what I can tell from the comments a very small minority ever even had the problem in the first place.

I like the idea of a little bit of SR to pad their diminished value, though that could step on the toes of palemasters, but maybe even a little SR would help them against Halt Undead (scratch that, just checked, Halt Undead ignores SR) which is a no-save aoe undead paralyze due to the low INT score (another massive mummy PvP disadvantage vs vampires that get a fairly decent will save vs Halt Undead).

Maybe raise their INT score to 'Intelligent'?

I don't have a lot of alternative ideas to prop up mummies. They were fine, and at least had one trick, but I still don't see why vampires can't just be easily found in a stream book or be part of the default two options to shore up the obvious differences. Wights and ghouls are cool too, and never get used simply because by the time they're unlocked they're already long since phased out.

Re-reading the update thread, I somehow have the feeling that one thought that probably further favoured removing WoF from dread mummies could be the Necro specialists that would have a > 30% chance to get two dread mummies, doubling their WoF casts. While this could be considered OP and a potential reason to remove WoF, I am sure there are other ways to mitigate this rather than to cripple the summon for the majority of non-necro specialists and other EMD users. But probably I am assuming too much here.