Arelith

Tyrantfog zombies are also considerably slower, their abilities are also considerably weaker.


If you want to have a problem with any change it would be the loss of word of faith.


As it stands tyrantfog to zombie warrior is a flat trade accross now instead of a downgrade in summon quality.

This was a good change.

Shrouded Wanderer wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:14 am Tyrantfog zombies are also considerably slower, their abilities are also considerably weaker.


If you want to have a problem with any change it would be the loss of word of faith.


As it stands tyrantfog to zombie warrior is a flat trade accross now instead of a downgrade in summon quality.

This was a good change.

Tyrantfog zombies are not considerably slower. They travel at same speed as Zombie warrior, or even slightly faster than Zombie warrior. In addition, Abilities score do not sincerely matter as much because both of them have immunities to a whole lot of debuffs. This is not equal trade.

This is a downgrade.

Also, summons shouldn't be a flat trade when they upgrade. They should, well, upgrade. Unlocking a new tier of summons when leveling up shouldn't feel like a sidegrade at best, and a downgrade at worst.

I prever the warrior for I can toss stuff on it's weapons. TBH, I get sad to see him go for the other.

Reallylongunneededplayername wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:09 am I prever the warrior for I can toss stuff on it's weapons. TBH, I get sad to see him go for the other.

It's nice when a summon got a weapon that you can influence. But the issue is Zombie warrior's sword is a Iron Masterly Longsword. So you can only cast Elemental Weapon on it.

TheManBehindTheMemes wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:26 am It's nice when a summon got a weapon that you can influence. But the issue is Zombie warrior's sword is a Iron Masterly Longsword. So you can only cast Elemental Weapon on it.

Nevermind I take back my words.

I haven't used low level undead a lot but it always seemed generally accepted that the zombie warrior was better. Interesting.

The tyrant fog appears to be unarmed, and disease does nothing because it requires a huge amount of time to actually trigger. Unlike poison it doesn't apply any initial debuff.

Mileage may vary, maybe.

A lot of monsters, especially in the UD, have a little DR against mundane weapons, so even the +1 on the iron weapon can mean significantly more damage - as well as double the threat range being quite a boost.

I didn't think they were this similar though. What is the feat loadout? Does the warrior have knockdown for example?

I've leveled a lot of characters who used undead near exclusively throughout the process.

The tyrantfog zombie replacing the warrior was always a kick where it hurts, back before the order was reversed. I'd argue for nixing the tyrantfog entirely in favor of a different summon, or down-tuning it a smidge, while buffing the HP/AB of the warrior if keeping the progression as is, but that's just me. The tyrantfog absolutely isn't an upgrade to the warrior. You lose so much damage through the sword to unarmed shift, regardless of what can or can't be put on it. Whichever stage comes second also doesn't scale that well into the higher levels where you unlock it, and the 9-13 stretch has always been where my necromancers swap in planar summons instead until unlocking mummies.

The tyrantfog zombies also used to have an awkward CR, making them reduce exp to a far greater degree than a summon of their level bracket ought to. I don't know if that's fixed.

My experience was generally always that whichever summon you unlock first feels amazing for the early levels, with nothing hitting through the zombie DR initially, and that whichever one comes after feels disappointing, in that it doesn't really scale at all, tank as well, or have an AB that compares with conjuration options or planars of the same bracket. Then you hit mummies and feel great again, since they more or less reset to the early zombie experience where barely anything scratches them from the point of unlocking and until the upper teen levels. Unlike zombies, they're also not slow.

In summary, my summon use when factoring in undead has always wound up being:
5-9 - zombies (unless using scrolls to access undead prior to 3rd circle/2nd PM)
9-13 - planars
13-24 - mummies
25-30 - swap to vampires (mostly for PvP, since they eat low AC people alive, hit through Premonition and are 50% faster than a player. Summons really don't tank high-epics dungeon content well, unless swinging below your level weight class. Or unless you're a warlock with permanent darkness access. Or unless you're content with grinding at the speed of air elemental per hours, which I'm not. At that point, I'd rather just find a party, run summon-less to prevent crowding and lob in temporary Gates or a dragon in spots where the group is overwhelmed.)

Of course the other advantage of the tryant fog was it's AoE that created agro for all spawns meaning they would target them rather than the caster, this combined with it's DR, HP and AC means it's a better summon that the higher level zombie warrior that gives up all those advantages for the ability to bypass +2 DR.
Not a good trade in my opinion.

Hexgoblin wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:35 am The tyrantfog zombies also used to have an awkward CR, making them reduce exp to a far greater degree than a summon of their level bracket ought to. I don't know if that's fixed.

They still have the awkward CR.

Skibbles wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:11 am Does the warrior have knockdown for example?

You're really not going to like their feat loadout. At all.

What really pains my eyes here the most is the downgrade in DR. the lower tier summon tanks 10 damage per hit and the higher tanks half of it. I just cannot stress enough how huge of a difference it is in low level dungeons and for that /alone/ the lower tier summon is much better, objectively. I'm also confused a bit as to why these two tiers are in the same level and have about the same stats which looks a lot like an oversight but honestly I'd just like to see their DR values flipped between one another. Quick fix.

I was rather disappointed with both of them, when I ran a necromancer. If you are able to acquire the vampire stream, do that ASAP (Ask about how to summon vampires from evil PCs holding magic staves, one of them can likely point you in the right direction). Though the ghouls and ghasts have less DR, they make up for it by NOT being slow doorstops and the knockdown + On-hit stun are a huge boon for low level encounters.

If i can be so bold...


In my opinion the undead summon table needs to be reworked from the ground up with 3 streams instead of two and have each stream focus on one thing instead of constantly trying to balance PVP SUMMON vs. PVE Summon.

I think Astral's suggestion is reasonable and I'll adjust them around if I get the chance (it's annoying to do, to be honest)

Shrouded Wanderer wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:15 pm If i can be so bold...


In my opinion the undead summon table needs to be reworked from the ground up with 3 streams instead of two and have each stream focus on one thing instead of constantly trying to balance PVP SUMMON vs. PVE Summon.

Zombies.
Skeletons.
Ghosts.

Hazard wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:09 pm

Shrouded Wanderer wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:15 pm If i can be so bold...


In my opinion the undead summon table needs to be reworked from the ground up with 3 streams instead of two and have each stream focus on one thing instead of constantly trying to balance PVP SUMMON vs. PVE Summon.

Zombies.
Skeletons.
Ghosts.

Yes. This was what i was thinking.

Didnt elaborate too much because i dont wanna derail the purpose of the thread, but current streams really just play catch up with the current meta

Instead i would suggest 3 streams dedicated to 3 areas of specialty.


Melee ability - skeletons

Tank - ghosts

Abilities - Zombies


Ghosts would use DR and concealment for tankability

Skeletons would be equiv of vampires without the enervations (possibly higher AB to offset the vamp abilities)

And Zombies would be focused on casting abilities that curse/enervate/slow/disease/WoF on targets


Each stream would then be viable within PvP and PvE (with the eventual optimalities) while also reducing the very lorebreaking current streams.


Vampires being simple control and mummies are both sort of above grade for simple necromancers IMO and dont really fit the "minion" archetype


Id see the streams for vampires and mummies to fill additional slots for the skeletons and zombie slots as optional cosmetic changes.

Then start necromancers with Zombie stream. With skeletons and ghosts being findable


Progression would be

Skeletons:
punchy skeleton,
skeletal warrior(skeleton with sword),
skeletal infantry,
skeletal soldier
Skeletal champion
Skeletal commander

Zombies:
Base zombie
Tyrantfog zombie
Zombie biter
Ghoul
Frost ghoul
Darakghoul
Dread Darakghoul

Ghosts
Wraith
Ghost
Wight
Frost wight
Ancient champion
Adventurers ghost
Ancestral guardian

Xerah wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:24 pm I think Astral's suggestion is reasonable and I'll adjust them around if I get the chance (it's annoying to do, to be honest)

Yeah I mean it has no affect on high lvl pvp and the balance of the world. Just...annoying few levels to go through until the next summon tier. And I can only guess these summons have been like this since Yellena reworked them to their current streams eons ago and no one has cared about it much. But now that people also level with them on meme (probably caster bard) loremaster builds in early levels they are noticed more.

AstralUniverse wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:59 pm But now that people also level with them on meme (probably caster bard) loremaster builds in early levels they are noticed more.

I noticed them because I am playing an Abjuration Wizard and my only mean of early-games is undead or domination.

TheManBehindTheMemes wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:10 pm

AstralUniverse wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:59 pm But now that people also level with them on meme (probably caster bard) loremaster builds in early levels they are noticed more.

I noticed them because I am playing an Abjuration Wizard and my only mean of early-games is undead or domination.

The only undead summoner I played, spend time with goodies in those early levels and did not summon, so I just didnt know personally. Man the DR part really blew my mind.

AstralUniverse wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:16 pm The only undead summoner I played, spend time with goodies in those early levels and did not summon, so I just didnt know personally. Man the DR part really blew my mind.

If I didn't play an UD Abjurer wizard, I would have not discovered this funny flaw. Which is why I made this thread in first place. And not another "REEEE MUMMIES LOSES WOF!"

TheManBehindTheMemes wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:35 pm

AstralUniverse wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:16 pm The only undead summoner I played, spend time with goodies in those early levels and did not summon, so I just didnt know personally. Man the DR part really blew my mind.

If I didn't play an UD Abjurer wizard, I would have not discovered this funny flaw. Which is why I made this thread in first place. And not another "REEEE MUMMIES LOSES WOF!"

I feel attacked.

I always liked the zombie warrior over mister gasy pants myself when lvling. Thier DR and dmg is epic at those early lvls.

Please undo this change.

A cool thing specific to UCL would be a command to be able to choose what UCL you want to summon at. Gaining UCL would unlock tiers, but you choose the preferred tier with the default being the highest available tier.

This would lead to necromancers having the choice of what they’re wanting to summon out of the available options. It would be useful in RP and provide more choice for aesthetic.