Arelith

Straight up one of the most extreme hit or miss systems Arelith has. A hit is so extremely rare and basically gets you good extended prisoner rp (already possible) and a miss is wildly immersion breaking half-naked-lap-elves-sexy elven fun times-in-Hub slaves-as-basically-underdark-[surface race]-buddy stuff, and we all know which one happens more often.

Ignoring the weirdness of having chattel slavery ingame, and ignoring the weirdness of unbreakable mega-collars on characters that fight demons-

It's also exploitable. Anyone that plays in the UD for long enough and pays any real attention can fairly easily compile a list of slaves that grind up, buy their freedom, and then function as a mega-outcast that can use the Hub portal and also go on the surface with no outcast tag.

So, beyond just removing them, some ideas. One, some all:
Upkeep Cost. This incentivizes a more rp-friendly Mamluk-esque system, where a slave must be actually maintained and, presumably, pull their weight. (this also prevents a character having, say, hordes of gnome slaves giggling in the UD like it's funny to be enslaved)

Level limit. This would, frankly, nip a good deal of it in the bud. Is it fun to be a level 30 wild elf monk in the UD, especially given how monks are? I mean, I guess. It'd be less destructive to the setting (sorry for the setting enforcement stuff) to be a perma-slave with no real rp goals if you were capped until freed, however. Stops the 'oh my slave is an archmage nbd' stuff, as well.

Freed slaves have to choose between becoming an Outcast (With tag, boat problems, etc) and finding their freedom on the surface (no Hub portal, no outcast tag, probably forget UD portals as well). This prevents mega-outcasts and the extreme weirdness of a slave deciding "Oh, this place I was horribly tortured and treated as an object? I'll just hang out here. It's cool. What's psychological trauma?"

Just remove it. The prisoner tag does basically anything you'd legitimately want to RP with slavery and it does it with a much less exploitable system that requires significantly less OOC collaboration, which will help to nip the harem-slave-jutsu that often bogs down the system and setting.

I like the idea of your ideas, and I like some of the ideas too.
I would love to see slavery become something that is taken more seriously, because atm I feel you are right. It is 'mostly' used for leveling in the underdark.

I believe a ruling was made not long ago that you, under no circumstances, can RP a romantic/physical relationship with any slave characters.

If I could be so bold as to add another idea... What if slaves had no bank account, and could only deposit into their masters bank account? It would make them financially reliable on their master.

A level limit sounds good, but you also want useful slaves and the player to be able to develop their character. What if instead of level limits, slave collars could just kill/paralyze the slave through a simple command or object use? Something to give the master some control other than a lynching. The summon feature is fine, but it really doesn't scare anyone.

I know it's an established thing in Dungeons and Dragons lore and I can't argue with its place in the setting but slavery is such a real world horror it seems quite tasteless to be a part of the game at least as a lot of us seem to play it. NPCs in the background make sense to show the callousness of Anundor but I agree it doesn't tend to get the gravity it deserves with PCs.

I think I would rather see a vassal or servitude system that was alignment agnostic and not "officially" in support of slavery=fun. Something that would let you be a paladin's squire or merchant's indentured servant or, yes, drow's slave if you wish.

As a resident slave-player who really enjoys playing it, I'll chime in a bit.

Upkeep Cost:
- It makes sense, taken the slaves are just lended out from the slavemasters, rather than owned by anyone for real. Maybe scales up as t he slave levels up.

Level limit:
- I do not like this. It discourages people from actual long-term slavery, which would make me sad. Whenever I play slave, I plan for actual long term, my last one lasting over year and half. It'd be horrible to be level locked, and not be able to do stuff properly like others.

The free'd slaves choice:
- I really like this. Please make it happen.

Just remove it:
- NO. Some of us actually do the RP and enjoy it without the weirdness you speak of. Prisoner tag is *not* the same, deliberately, if you're just prisoner people will be extra sus. about you, if you're without company. Slave collar is vastly different image right away, as it's way more permanent. Slavery =/= Prisoner.

Is it perfect system?
No.
But some people like it, like the RP that it can bring, myself included, and I'd be sad if it was taken away.
Also, I want to see different types of slaves from around the Faerun. Think about Mulhorand, where the system is vastly different. *imagine when slaves have rights*

A handful of threads on this topic already exist; it seems like a new one pop up every six months! I would recommend anyone reading this thread to take a look at this conversation from spring of last year. As I recall some devs responded in it as well, which may answer questions you would otherwise ask here.
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=28520&hilit=slavery

With that said I'll offer a short opinion. I think that to dissuade slavery from being used for mechanical benefit, one simple addition to the system could help a whole lot: cripple the amount of xp slaves gain. The benefits of how easy to access writs are, how cheap gear and materials are in the UD, how convenient being able to use the Hub portal is, etc. start to really not look worth it if you gain less experience than you would if you weren't a slave.
The number one most important question for players who don't want to RP but just powergrind is this: how quickly can I level up? Right now slavery makes leveling up easier. But if slavery were to make leveling up more difficult, by virtue of crippling its most base metric, then slavery becomes wholly undesirable to these players without changing any other aspect of the system.
For example, if slaves gain experience at a rate 50% of what non-slaves gain it at, then no powergrinder is going to want to be a slave. Problem solved...maybe? Just some food for thought. I won't pretend this is the solution or anything.

Removing it entirely just wouldn't work. It is a part of the setting. There are entire races, histories, cultures and faiths that revolve around enslaving others, and people will still roleplay them.

I'm pro-slavery.

Don't quote me out of context on that.

The hidden ex-slave tag access for portals is very strong and has been mentioned multiple times. I believe it was even one of the reasons they moved slavery to reward at one point?

Having them choosing between having outcast or surfacer tag once free is a good idea. But I think it was thrown out there before too.

Pretty much every aspect of the infrastructure of the nation of Thay is built around slavery. This is one example of how strongly ingrained in FR lore it is, one of the most feared superpowers of the setting designed even the most minute aspects of their country around slavery, and that's just the surface side of the setting. Additionally, I really don't think the majority of slave RP is this malus on the server that the OP is making it out to be. More often than not, I've actually seen some really well played roles that were far from cringe. Yes, there were certainly some exceptions, but I think the odd occasional cringe-slave is making a problem seem far more prevalent than it actually is.

I personally don't see why strong combat slaves are a problem, if they have RP backing up their behavior. Why is it a problem that a master has a slave or two that are their personal elite body guards? That seems like EXACTLY what slaving cultures of the past have done, it seems to make full sense here in the setting.

Now, I will say that I think the definitive choice of which tag to take is a good idea, so they aren't simply getting the best of both worlds. Maybe even make "Ex Slave" a visible thing to other players, like a brand or something? Seems like that would generate RP in character in a lot of ways.

Going with a different take, maybe increase low level surface evil/[neutral that's not directly opposed to evil QOL] a bit? And I think Irongron is already working on this in their spare time from what was said on Discord with a bit of a Sencliff revamp.

That doesn't directly change the "my OOC buddy wants to make a drow and I want to make a human" though it may indirectly change the mind of the buddy wanting to make a drow in the first place.

Also I wish there were a bit less obvious tells of "evil" for some class stuff. I understand having an undead/fiend is an obvious giveaway, I'm less sold on the whole warlock eye glow being a required thing that activates after each eldritch blast. You could already observe its use in combat but shouldn't be noticed if you come upon someone in between spawns that wasn't quick on a hotkey. I think the recent cavalier change did it right where you could summon your color-coded by alignment mount or a mundane one, and the color-coded one isn't given at level 3 so harder to pull metagame BS on it.

Finally I'm not a huge fan of Cordor's writs (I haven't played in Skal before). Maybe that's just lack of experience, but I found UD, Brog (if you include the Grotto writs), and even just circle grinding Sencliff undead/nymphs far more worthwhile from 3-9 from a time and lack of annoyance perspective. I don't have any real suggestions on this though and may just be me being bad.

tl;dr - Little bit of lower level surface evil QOL would probably handle a good chunk of this over time as it might make the UD a bit less of "the place to play evil" in a chunk of player's minds.

Hazard wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:43 pm Removing it entirely just wouldn't work. It is a part of the setting. There are entire races, histories, cultures and faiths that revolve around enslaving others, and people will still roleplay them.

I'm pro-slavery.

Don't quote me out of context on that.

You can still have people who are RPing being enslaved or unfree individuals without having some sort of hamfisted mechanical system for it. Removing the slavery tag does not preclude you from playing a prisoner with a job.

In fact, arguably, anything you can do with mechanical slavery, you can also do just as well (if not better) by just ignoring it completely and having a well communicated, well coordinated, mutually consenting OOC arrangement and plans with another player.

Flower Power wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:53 pm
In fact, arguably, anything you can do with mechanical slavery, you can also do just as well (if not better) by just ignoring it completely and having a well communicated, well coordinated, mutually consenting OOC arrangement and plans with another player.

WYSIWYG

I have played a slave before collars were a thing and other players simply didn't accept the rp because there was nothing actually binding my character to its master. It was almost impossible to play because of this. I'm not convinced that the community would behave differently now if the collar was taken away.

Playing a slave without anything mechanical supporting it is something you can do but no one has to believe your character or go along with the concept. That might be fine for strange concepts like my elf believing he is actual a gnoll but it can be a real struggle for something simple and fundamental.

-S

Slavery isn't PG-13.

If its RPed "correctly", its absolutely horrific. If its RPed "poorly", its horribly insensitive and whitewashes the gravity of the situation. Neither outcome is appropriate for children to be exposed to.

Seen it done very accurately, without being too 'adult', but seen it done many more times in quite a poor fashion.

It's difficult to say what to do about it.

Emotionaloverload wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:11 am

Flower Power wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:53 pm
In fact, arguably, anything you can do with mechanical slavery, you can also do just as well (if not better) by just ignoring it completely and having a well communicated, well coordinated, mutually consenting OOC arrangement and plans with another player.

WYSIWYG

I have played a slave before collars were a thing and other players simply didn't accept the rp because there was nothing actually binding my character to its master. It was almost impossible to play because of this. I'm not convinced that the community would behave differently now if the collar was taken away.

Playing a slave without anything mechanical supporting it is something you can do but no one has to believe your character or go along with the concept. That might be fine for strange concepts like my elf believing he is actual a gnoll but it can be a real struggle for something simple and fundamental.

-S

This is very true.

The slavery system is very difficult because there's a lot of points to balence - for example...

* How to disempower the 'slave' pc without making them unplayable
* How to empower the slave owner without making it abusive
*How to give those friends of the slave pc ways to help - without 'forcing' freedom on the slave pc.

I'm not going to claim that there arn't aspects of it that need fixing (I entirely agree with the point the OP makes about the hub portal being open to ex-slaves. To me that absolutly should not be the case!)

However I am not in favour of completely scrapping the system. I like it very much over all, as it can provide a drive and tenstion to a story, and has made some really great plotlines, some of the best I've ever played in fact.

Talvenlapsi wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:55 pm As a resident slave-player who really enjoys playing it, I'll chime in a bit.

Upkeep Cost:
- It makes sense, taken the slaves are just lended out from the slavemasters, rather than owned by anyone for real. Maybe scales up as t he slave levels up.

Level limit:
- I do not like this. It discourages people from actual long-term slavery, which would make me sad. Whenever I play slave, I plan for actual long term, my last one lasting over year and half. It'd be horrible to be level locked, and not be able to do stuff properly like others.

The free'd slaves choice:
- I really like this. Please make it happen.

Just remove it:
- NO. Some of us actually do the RP and enjoy it without the weirdness you speak of. Prisoner tag is *not* the same, deliberately, if you're just prisoner people will be extra sus. about you, if you're without company. Slave collar is vastly different image right away, as it's way more permanent. Slavery =/= Prisoner.

Is it perfect system?
No.
But some people like it, like the RP that it can bring, myself included, and I'd be sad if it was taken away.
Also, I want to see different types of slaves from around the Faerun. Think about Mulhorand, where the system is vastly different. *imagine when slaves have rights*

This is pretty much my exact thoughts - with agreement on all the points made. Though the last one is a bit tricky.

Anyway I've said enough on this and other topics. But yeah - it's complex.

What about a device, that only outcasts/underdarkers can use, that when used on a slave weakens them as if they'd been subdued? The concept would be sort of like a shock collar, I suppose. But this would allow slaves to adventure still, but not unrealistically throw their weight around in Andunor.

It would have to be expensive and with limited charges/long cooldown, to ensure it is only used when really appropriate.

I typed and deleted several times now..

There's nothing I can say that wouldnt come off as the RP police and we have DMs. It's not the player's job to police RP.

I loath this system and always have.

Slavery is a toughie, but some of the original points mentioned are already against the rules (having a cuddle slave for example is a reportable offense directly and explicitly against the rules, and should not reflect on the system's intention.)

I can't say I've personally seen absolutely terrible slave RP for a while now, and there's quite a few lately too.

Originally the problem with slavery was that it was a quick way to make a non-outcast-tag outcast, which is still a large issue, but after the minor gift tweak it seems to have largely rectified (or rather - people just make surface characters and immediately relocate to Andunor as soon as able) - either way it's not a slavery issue anymore.

By and large it is PG-13 however. For example the 2017 film Thor: Ragnarok heavily featured slavery and fights to the death in an arena where it was implied that people were brutally killed by Marvel Comic's version of the 'Beast' from Andunor's fight pits while slaves were electrocuted into submission or poked with a stick that literally melted them. It even featured a scene where they outright called them slaves and then tongue in cheek decided to call them prisoners with jobs.

Nasty stuff, but also PG-13 because the movie managed to use humor and implication rather than outright horrific torture and gore both of which can be reported on Arelith. Also a pretty good movie even if you don't like Hero movies.

Maybe I just see less of it, as I play heavily during the off hours, but many of the problems with slavery haven't been readily apparent to me as it had been in the past.

ReverentBlade wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:20 am Slavery isn't PG-13.

If its RPed "correctly", its absolutely horrific. If its RPed "poorly", its horribly insensitive and whitewashes the gravity of the situation. Neither outcome is appropriate for children to be exposed to.

I mean, there are NPC prostitutes who attempt to solicit you for sexwork, exotic dancers in multiple locations, dismembered and mutilated corpses strewn across the module, and even a pair of NPC henchmen who are heroin addicts (well, cheeeeese addicts, which is basically just heroin.)

Arelith is largely only PG-13 in regards to naughty words being bad.

Emotionaloverload wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:11 am

Flower Power wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:53 pm
In fact, arguably, anything you can do with mechanical slavery, you can also do just as well (if not better) by just ignoring it completely and having a well communicated, well coordinated, mutually consenting OOC arrangement and plans with another player.

WYSIWYG

I have played a slave before collars were a thing and other players simply didn't accept the rp because there was nothing actually binding my character to its master. It was almost impossible to play because of this. I'm not convinced that the community would behave differently now if the collar was taken away.

Playing a slave without anything mechanical supporting it is something you can do but no one has to believe your character or go along with the concept. That might be fine for strange concepts like my elf believing he is actual a gnoll but it can be a real struggle for something simple and fundamental.

-S

Step 1: Get booli'd by other UDers.
Step 2: Tell your master.
Step 3: Team up to killbash the boolis until they respect your position of servitude.
Step 4: Repeat until desired result is obtained.

I will point out the third bullet point is basically done by the DMs already. When we see ex-slaves hanging around in the Underdark continually they'll typically get offered a choice.

Changing it to a mechanical choice at the end of the slave breaking quest is possible, but I don't know that it's a priority for the developers to do. If someone's seen clearly not taking it seriously, forming any sort of romantic style relationship with slaves, or gaming the system once they break free do let the Active DM Team know with a PM if you would.

I'm sorry I shouldn't be commenting on this thread again but:

Step 1: Get booli'd by other UDers.
Step 2: Tell your master.
Step 3: Team up to killbash the boolis until they respect your position of servitude.
Step 4: Repeat until desired result is obtained.

Any plan that involves step 3. Or rather any plan that involves the words 'Team up to killbash until they...' is a plan that seems to mostly revolve around making other players miserable so they do what you want.

This goes against the heart of what Arelith is - or at the very least should be.

Any plan that involves that aspect is going to get you a boot in the rear by the DM team.

Addendum: Actually this mind set is pretty much a perfect example of why the Slave Collar is needed.

Imagine if you will a world where there was none.

Tony The Slave: 'I'm sorry, but see! I've got this magical (emoted) collar on that cannot be broken! And evil Drow Bob will torture or kil me if I don't do what he says!'

Paladin: Ho! I have magic spells and a strength of 29. I can break this collar *emotes breaking it*

Tony the Slave: *that doesnot work* (Because Tony is currently actually enjoying his rp)

Paladin: HO! If that didn't work it's because you didn't want it to! You're a willing slave and a villain sir! Have at it!'

Tony: 'N-no I don't want-'

Paladin [tell]: 'Sorry dude, you CHOSE to go with this rp. You could have ignored the beating emotes, or just respawned but now you're CHOOSEING to rp with the bad guys. That makes you EVIL! So now I gotta kill you over and over and over and over again, until you quit or else agree to be 'freed' because that's what Lawful Good does!'

Tony... *Well I... guess it works I suppose*

Paladin: 'YAY!'

Tony [tell] I was really enjoying that rp...

Paladin [Tell]: 'Oh Tony. This isn't about your enjoyment. It's about ME WINNING!

I mean this above practically happen WITH The collar. I've seen slave PCs been responded with 'WELL WHY DIDN'T U AGREE 2 DIE! YOU CHOSE 2 B A SLAVE!'

Which is about as awfully meta as you can get. Without the mechancis of a collar it'd just be much worse.

I really do not think the mechanical system needs to exist so deeply for slavery to be used in RP. I also think the example you produced could be one way of looking with it but a slave actively participating in evil deeds is doing evil even if their status is one of a slave so a paladin would totally have almost any reason to react violently to a repeat offender slave spy/murderer/goon.

Slavery itself within DnD terms is not a matter of absolute evil or good, either. The realm of Mulhorand practices good aligned serfdom and actively takes care of their workforce. There is indentured servitude and horrific cattle slavery as well. It's more a matter of Law-versus-Chaos and the current system as is really shoe-horns a frankly one-sided thing for anyone who participates in it.

I am not speaking as a developer as a side note; but as a user and a player the entire system is overly mechanized in the wrong way, has way too many narrative things about it to make it "okay" (you literally have an impossible collar that cannot be dealt with except for a tedious, overly arduous FOIG task).

If the collar isn't there it allows a player to decide when they want to end their slave status RP. If they want to be rescued by a hero, they can be, if they want to RP being reluctant they can be.

Them deciding to stay with their masters is not necessarily an ethical question - but a paladin / hero / villain is free to abuse any slave under the conditions of RP with all of the intricate, complex contexts that can have with that so long as it makes sense. Beating a slave to death for being a slave as a paladin might not be something a paladin would do - but being suspicious of a well known slave soldier or driving off slaves from Andunor as spies is 100% kosher imo.

The prisoner collar, if anything, is probably a better way to handle it. I also think the whole yoink-aspect of it needs to be done away with because it just has so much about it that, while yes, we could report violations of the Be Nice rule is just a huge area of "why is this even a thing to begin with".

----

My general feeling is that because it has so much mechanics behind it; it hampers RP with it. It loads it with specific loyalties (to Andunor, to places where there are chattle slavery) and effectively delegitimizes anyone not using the mechanical system.

It'd better off being less mechanical, more general, and useful to the whole server not just zones of ABSOLUTE EVIL.

Just make the prisoner collar a thing, give it stuff that effectively anyone can deal with (disable trap or open lock can open it, brute strength can destroy it, specific schools of magic and focuses can miracle/delete it, government officials in where you were imprisoned can unlock it), get rid of the slave-caller.

Make it so every settlement has some sort of clamper NPC and let people design what it means in game.

I will never understand why i cant simply cut off someone's head, remove the collar, then resurrect them - collar free. My plan is bulletproof and you are stifling my rp by making this mechanically impossible.

I will never understand why i cant simply cut off someone's head, remove the collar, then resurrect them - collar free. My plan is bulletproof and you are stifling my rp by making this mechanically impossible.

Because that would entirely undermine the slavery mechanic, if your plan is to not keep your character a slave for very long that's what the prisoner collar is for.

I've always found the slavery system very awkward..

A recent interaction as an example: My character, a gnomish priestess of Ironhand, came across a newly arrived rock gnome slave (ie someone who spent a reward to be a slave oocly) being the target of some (mild) abuse by a drow in the Hub. Her immediate strategy was to take the slave away from that situation, find her shelter, and ultimately guide her to the Grotto where a meeting was held by members across the Grotto community on how this young, masterless gnome could be freed.

The options were plenty, but the most obvious one, the elephant in the room, was simply buying off the slavery. We all agreed to pitch in the sum in a Grotto-wide drive that would easily match the amount required, if not double it.

In the middle of all this, this player, who was basically fresh off the boat, was about to lose the slave tag they paid an award for, and that they likely made their whole character to enjoy. At this point she came up with an excuse that she wanted to 'work off her problems' rather than rely on charity, and the rest of us could only nod along to this.

(That character was later deleted, because it turns out she was just a druid taking advantage of fast UD leveling)

Therein lies my distaste for the slavery system. It leads to some really weird ooc interactions, because realistic slavery interactions are both few and far between, and at best "mildly uncomfortable" to witness. Many more permanent slaves are treated more like favored pets and necessities to produce things like moonblades and elven masterly chains en masse, while the majority, frankly, just want to play *insert surface race* in the Underdark without having to be an outcast.

---

EDIT: I want you to imagine the opposite. Right now it's a minor reward to play a good monster, but it has been repeatedly stressed that this isn't the same as being accepted in the surface, that a 'good monster' is still a monster and should behave like one. Yet the slave collar is very much the opposite. It's a free ticket to exist in the underdark, and will earn you immediate sympathy and support on the surface (along with a little suspicion, but far less so).

So I have ranted about the slave system in the past. In fact, the OP includes in his signature one of my comments from one of those previous threads where I said, essentially, I like the idea but it is never used in the proper way. However, I feel like I am getting over this quickly. With recent changes to the server, I'm less concerned about gaming this for mechanical benefits. Granted UD writs are good and UD players have access to some early purchaseables that make the writs easier (in fact, making equivalent purchaseables readily available at all low level starts might level the playing field a bit) but it really levels off when you get into mid teens to upper levels. However, I think there are a number of factors that make this not a problem.

* The UD has a reputation for this and low level writs are always swamped creating a counter incentive.
* The new Guld start at level 14 makes ease of leveling less problematic.
* As much as it can be an RP quality grab bag, Skal is very tolerant of Evil
* It keeps getting easier to engage in the Sencliffe evil start.

Ultimately, I think there are just more alternatives than there were a little while ago and clearly the team is working on it. Is it personally frustrating for your Lawful-Good paladin to not be able to free a slave because that player doesn't want to be freed. Yes! However, is that just a version of you saying your story is more important than theirs? Probably! Let people play their stories and understand that the mechanical benefits really aren't as big as they used to be.