Arelith

I didn't post this in the bug forum because technically this is working as it's supposed to. You buff yourself with a wand or a spell to have more constitution. You get really close to death and escape to some place to rest. You press "r" to rest and boom, you wake up in the fugue. Why though?

Congratulations, you just lost some XP and are in time out to think about what you've done. Can this be fixed?

Imagine you get a $1,000 stipend per month. You also make income from your job.

You lose that job yet still have your $1,000 stipend for food and shelter so you survive just barely. However, you end up losing that stipend. Now you can afford nothing. And die.

I guess that's the mindset.

I hate this too. It's even more of a sting after you just manage to win a tough fight, then die due to a HP dip from losing a con buff. Any way of avoiding this via mechanics change would be appreciated. It's not fun and it doesn't make sense really either, given you're actively recovering already.

Just happened to me, been a while since I last fell for that. I want to punch something.

If you are a level 10 character and gain 4 constitution, you gain 20 hp. When you loose that bonus constitution, you loose those bonus hit points. If you have less than 20 hp when that happens, it ends badly.

The solution is simply not to rest when you are on the verge of death. I get the impulse to rest rather than waste healing supplies but how many supplies does it take to get your HP up above the bonus you got from the con buff? If money is so tight you can't spare a few healing supplies then you are probably such a low level that even a cure light will do the job.

If it helps, consider how difficult it is to fall asleep when you are in intense pain, a little healing to lessen the wounds will help you drift off easier.

Hinty wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:12 pm If you are a level 10 character and gain 4 constitution, you gain 20 hp. When you loose that bonus constitution, you loose those bonus hit points. If you have less than 20 hp when that happens, it ends badly.

The solution is simply not to rest when you are on the verge of death. I get the impulse to rest rather than waste healing supplies but how many supplies does it take to get your HP up above the bonus you got from the con buff? If money is so tight you can't spare a few healing supplies then you are probably such a low level that even a cure light will do the job.

If it helps, consider how difficult it is to fall asleep when you are in intense pain, a little healing to lessen the wounds will help you drift off easier.

I think we all know why it happens, the point is its very easy to forget and isn't fun for anyone. I doubt anyone is going to RP much of a death from dying this way, so really the whole experience just cheapens the meaning of death further. It's a small QOL change that makes the game a bit less frustrating, without making the game any easier as such.

Yeah, this isn't a bug.

HP changes from constitution changes apply to both minimum and maximum HP simultaneously. You'd have to change how that works, making all HP from constitution effectively closer to permanent temporary hitpoints, to change how this happens - and that'd probably be a buttload of work.

Just chug a like 80 GP CLW potion of slap a +1 heal kit on yourself before you take a nap, problem solved.

Alternatively, could make it so buffs are wiped at the END of rest, rather than at the start. Assuming at the end you'd get all your HP back before the dispel triggers. But idk if that's possible.

I’ve played on at least one other server where you can’t go below 1 hp when resting. That seems better than killing you if you didn’t do the mental math with your con buff.

magistrasa wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 3:38 pm Alternatively, could make it so buffs are wiped at the END of rest, rather than at the start. Assuming at the end you'd get all your HP back before the dispel triggers. But idk if that's possible.

Especially for Low-con shifter characters (Druids and Shifters specifically actually) this is a very common reason for death. To rest properly, you MUST come out of your shifted form, and if you are injured, alot of times, your health goes down to 1-4. Pair that with a still active buff, and it ends you in the Fugue.

All easily fixed, if buff removal was done at the end, or even after the first rest count even, doesn't even have to be at the end, just delay it long enough to not insta-kill the rester

You really shouldnt press R and rest when you're on 1 hp and have a con buff running. This is entirely your responsibility to slap a couple of healing kits before you press R.

AstralUniverse wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:38 am You really shouldnt press R and rest when you're on 1 hp and have a con buff running. This is entirely your responsibility to slap a couple of healing kits before you press R.

Can we remember this is a game? As said before it's not fun, immersive or furthering any RP on the server for people to die from this. I don't quite get the support of the current system if there's any dev who is able to fix it.

If debuffs could vanish at the end of rest, as suggested, this would be welcome improvement.

I mean... it's a dumb way to die, but there are lots of dumb ways to die. This one is more avoidable than most.

Morgy wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:31 am

AstralUniverse wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:38 am You really shouldnt press R and rest when you're on 1 hp and have a con buff running. This is entirely your responsibility to slap a couple of healing kits before you press R.

Can we remember this is a game? As said before it's not fun, immersive or furthering any RP on the server for people to die from this. I don't quite get the support of the current system if there's any dev who is able to fix it.

If debuffs could vanish at the end of rest, as suggested, this would be welcome improvement.

I could just pull the same "Can we remember this is just a game" but then present the counter arguments to your points. Your opinion is subjective. And also as said above, it's one of the more avoidable silly ways to die. I wouldnt particularly mind if buffs wore off at the end of the resting tbh but I also wouldnt really mind if it stays as it is. It's a part of a general 'game awareness' that rewards experience and trail/error in the game.

AstralUniverse wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 11:07 am

Morgy wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:31 am

AstralUniverse wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:38 am You really shouldnt press R and rest when you're on 1 hp and have a con buff running. This is entirely your responsibility to slap a couple of healing kits before you press R.

Can we remember this is a game? As said before it's not fun, immersive or furthering any RP on the server for people to die from this. I don't quite get the support of the current system if there's any dev who is able to fix it.

If debuffs could vanish at the end of rest, as suggested, this would be welcome improvement.

I could just pull the same "Can we remember this is just a game" but then present the counter arguments to your points. Your opinion is subjective. And also as said above, it's one of the more avoidable silly ways to die. I wouldnt particularly mind if buffs wore off at the end of the resting tbh but I also wouldnt really mind if it stays as it is. It's a part of a general 'game awareness' that rewards experience and trail/error in the game.

You could, but which argument is in the better interests of fun? All opinions are subjective by definition

AstralUniverse wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 11:07 am

Morgy wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:31 am

AstralUniverse wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:38 am You really shouldnt press R and rest when you're on 1 hp and have a con buff running. This is entirely your responsibility to slap a couple of healing kits before you press R.

Can we remember this is a game? As said before it's not fun, immersive or furthering any RP on the server for people to die from this. I don't quite get the support of the current system if there's any dev who is able to fix it.

If debuffs could vanish at the end of rest, as suggested, this would be welcome improvement.

I could just pull the same "Can we remember this is just a game" but then present the counter arguments to your points. Your opinion is subjective. And also as said above, it's one of the more avoidable silly ways to die. I wouldnt particularly mind if buffs wore off at the end of the resting tbh but I also wouldnt really mind if it stays as it is. It's a part of a general 'game awareness' that rewards experience and trail/error in the game.

"Game awareness" is something like keeping an eye on the minimap to see when you're getting ganked in League of Legends. In this case, I'd disagree with you because when this happens, it is counter to what you expect to happen. When you play this game, you learn that resting does a few things: it restores your health back to full, it can remove some ailments from your character, and it refreshes your skills and spells.

So, when you rest and suddenly die, that is counter to the result you expect. It is also, as Morgy has pointed out, supremely un-fun. Also, taken in the context of the character, it makes no sense. Resting can be taken to mean a number of things from an in character perspective as well. Certainly it can mean sleeping, but it can also mean you sit down at a camp, tend to your wounds, eat food, etc. Considering that we have healing kits that work 100% of the time, it's unreasonable to expect that a character who sits down to rest in a safe location would somehow botch healing himself to the point of death.

I've been playing this game for 2 decades, this has always been an issue. As a general rule, never rest at Near Death, drink a healing potion, use a heal kit, THEN rest. Imagine if you just went to bed before tending to your wounds, you could potentially bleed out and die. I say it's fine as is, take your character's health as seriously as you'd take your own and be willing to waste healing supplies for better health.

I'm not sure "unfun" is a good counter-argument, much like arguing the food/water/rest gauges are "unfun" because a subjective player isn't managing them and has penalties kick in suddenly while adventuring. It's a cause and effect of the game and it's entirely avoidable.

It's just something to be aware of, that resting dispels magic and if that is the only thing keeping you alive it becomes an embarrassing suicide. Though hopefully if it IS a safe place you'll get raised fairly sharpish anyway and your adventurer can RP learning a lesson about using Bear's Endurance instead of a bandage.

Eating/drinking/etc make sense from a RP view, I think the difference here is quite clear.

Dying when you sit down does not - especially when you actually heal during that point anyway (presumably tending to your wounds, as sleep alone isn't going to bring someone back from near death), so logically you should be recovering in the same way.

When you die this way, it really doesn't add anything to the game at all. It bothers a lot of people, clearly, and a lot of others seem indifferent - so what exactly is the harm in changing this if it is possible and a dev wishes to commit the time to it?

Also, whilst 'unfun' might not be a complete argument in itself, it is an extremely relevant factor in making any change to a game.

It's really not intuitive. I've played plenty of RPGs with resting and can't think of a single one where if you're too close to death you die. It's pretty unique to Arelith (and I assume base game NWN but IIRC no other NWN server I've played on kills you when resting).

Resting=healing in most any player's mind so when it first happens it's a "WTF" moment. It's a "gotcha" and "gotchas" generally aren't fun to play around, particularly when they're very situational and easy to forget about.

If it's a quirk of Arelith no one is interested in changing then so be it but I do not think it's out of line to bring this up.

No, it's always been. It's part of the base game. When you rest you immediately lose all buffs cast by yourself. If your HP is too low, then the magic that was keeping you alive disappears and you die. It sucks but it's always been and it makes perfect sense to me. Always keep a close eye on your HP and never go to sleep Near Death. No matter what I say you're playing with fate if you do that, both IC and OoC.

Security_Blanket wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:31 pm No, it's always been. It's part of the base game. When you rest you immediately lose all buffs cast by yourself. If your HP is too low, then the magic that was keeping you alive disappears and you die. It sucks but it's always been and it makes perfect sense to me. Always keep a close eye on your HP and never go to sleep Near Death. No matter what I say you're playing with fate if you do that, both IC and OoC.

A tonne of the base game has been altered for Arelith.

Also, I don't think anyone is RPing going to sleep during their outing into a cave

Morgy wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:17 pm Eating/drinking/etc make sense from a RP view, I think the difference here is quite clear.

Dying when you sit down does not - especially when you actually heal during that point anyway (presumably tending to your wounds, as sleep alone isn't going to bring someone back from near death), so logically you should be recovering in the same way.

That feels like a misnomer, from an RP point of view you're concentrating on using a magic spell to increase your bodies resistance to traumatic injury. When you rest without treating the injuries, you're just dropping the spell and suffering the consequences.

Its the same as not eating/drinking and getting fatigued, at least from my perspective.

Ninjimmy wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:41 pm

Morgy wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:17 pm Eating/drinking/etc make sense from a RP view, I think the difference here is quite clear.

Dying when you sit down does not - especially when you actually heal during that point anyway (presumably tending to your wounds, as sleep alone isn't going to bring someone back from near death), so logically you should be recovering in the same way.

That feels like a misnomer, from an RP point of view you're concentrating on using a magic spell to increase your bodies resistance to traumatic injury. When you rest without treating the injuries, you're just dropping the spell and suffering the consequences.

Its the same as not eating/drinking and getting fatigued, at least from my perspective.

By this logic, shapeshifting druids should be dying when they unpolymorph, not just dropping to 1hp.

Ninjimmy wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 3:57 pm I'm not sure "unfun" is a good counter-argument, much like arguing the food/water/rest gauges are "unfun" because a subjective player isn't managing them and has penalties kick in suddenly while adventuring. It's a cause and effect of the game and it's entirely avoidable.

My argument against this has never been solely about it being "unfun." It's been about it being counter-intuitive to what a player would expect. The idea that "this is just the way the game works so get used to it" is a bad idea. If something doesn't work the way that most people expect it to work, and there is a clear way to fix that with literally no downside, then why would you not fix it?