Arelith

The recent knock nerf made me think about the current state of epic dungeon rewards. This is by no means criticism to the update, I'm actually surprised it didn't happen earlier because it makes sense. Knock is a low level spell that used to trivialize both easy and hard locks.

To be honest, I wonder why runic chests are even locked or trapped to begin with. Most games I've ever played reward the player for killing the boss right away, but in Arelith's case, I would call it bittersweet: sometimes you get to open the runic chest after defeating the boss and you're rewarded with a very rare rune crafting component, but other times no one in the party can open the chest or disarm its trap, and the nearby ore vein that could be adamantine is instead arjale. Not to mention when you open the runic chest and find it empty. It can feel very frustrating defeating a difficult boss and then not being properly rewarded for it, sometimes not rewarded at all.

The point of this topic is not to be a suggestion, but it would feel very strange giving my feedback and not mentioning what I think would be a more fair system. Keeping myself short, I think the solution isn't a too complex one: I would have the runic chest completely unlock after the boss is defeated, but add more generic treasure chests to the boss' hoard, chests locked with high open lock DCs. In such a way, you always get rewarded for defeating the boss, but if you brought a good lockpicker along with your party, you get to earn more treasure. Open lock ends up not being necessary, but if you have the skill, you are rewarded for it. Everyone wins in the end.

This is pretty much what is already planned.

Irongron wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 3:55 pm This is pretty much what is already planned.

That's awesome.

Locked doors and chests have been widely used to prevent ninja-looting to some degree. I actually find it a very normal part of nwn and other games in the case that they offer some resistance between you and the sweet sweet loot, other than tons of mobs and a boss fight.
The nerf to Knock is a good nerf because it forces the party to include other characters of different skill sets. In vanilla you can just pop Trueseeing, Find trap and Knock all you want which really breaks the balance. So I applaud the changes made here on Arelith with changes to these spells. But from what I read the direction might be more like looting a one-time-use key from the dead boss or the locked state be changed by the boss' onDeath() trigger. I wouldn't mind if a rogue could steal the key if that is being considered.

Eh, if there's a concern for ninja looting you could just have it lock specific, key on the boss.

Ordo.Lupus wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 5:45 pm
The nerf to Knock is a good nerf because it forces the party to include other characters of different skill sets.

Clearly there is a better plan in the works, so this isn't really to start a debate, but this stood out to me because I think this point is dead wrong. Rogues should be way more then just lock openers, and can do quite well in dungeons in a group...or even alone, if you can figure out the rhythm. So randomly forcing a group of non rogues/non wizards to have a rogue or a mage for content that said rogue or mage could solo seems Snuggybear backward.

For the record, the counter argument to this thread over the years has always been "but this makes rogue RP useless and even more replicable". Now, I dont have a horse here but I thought I'd just put it here for a reminder.

Also,

Dragonovith wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 3:51 pm but other times no one in the party can open the chest or disarm its trap, and the nearby ore vein that could be adamantine is instead arjale. Not to mention when you open the runic chest and find it empty. It can feel very frustrating defeating a difficult boss and then not being properly rewarded for it, sometimes not rewarded at all.

I can help but feeling we've adventured in RDI together a couple of days ago. This is exactly what happened. And 0 rubies.

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 7:46 pm

Ordo.Lupus wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 5:45 pm
The nerf to Knock is a good nerf because it forces the party to include other characters of different skill sets.

Clearly there is a better plan in the works, so this isn't really to start a debate, but this stood out to me because I think this point is dead wrong. Rogues should be way more then just lock openers, and can do quite well in dungeons in a group...or even alone, if you can figure out the rhythm. So randomly forcing a group of non rogues/non wizards to have a rogue or a mage for content that said rogue or mage could solo seems Snuggybear backward.

On forcing groups to include X or Y, another issue I feel would be casual players in weird timezones. I for one would not be affected as I play in a duo party and log in together... but I cannot help but imagine what would happen if our duo could not resolve locks and as is usual for us, the server had like 1-2 players in Guld and 30 spread all over surface. Finding another player during our playtime tends to be a major surprise.

Speaking personaly - I do find it frustrating when I can't finish a writ or explore much of a dungeon because I don't have Open Lock.

That said - I really don't mind it being a requisite if you really want to get 'The good' stuff.

Needing a rogue on board to max your treasure output seems honestly pretty on brand.

There is nothing as disheartening as clearing that high end dungeon only to discover the trap on the runic chest is more dangerous than the boss itself.

I don't think it makes that much sense to gate such important game features such as runic materials behind certain skills or classes. You need a rogue, or you need a pixie familiar. Would be the same as making it only so Fighter and Barbarians can mine adamantine deposits, it's weird.

Dragonovith wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 3:51 pm I think the solution isn't a too complex one: I would have the runic chest completely unlock after the boss is defeated, but add more generic treasure chests to the boss' hoard, chests locked with high open lock DCs. In such a way, you always get rewarded for defeating the boss, but if you brought a good lockpicker along with your party, you get to earn more treasure. Open lock ends up not being necessary, but if you have the skill, you are rewarded for it. Everyone wins in the end.

I think this needs to be they are unlocked by default, or you need open lock on hand. Setting it up so you only get the prime loot if you open the lock before killing the boss wouldn't work out very well, and also still only serves to gate loot behind high level rogues. This is already an "issue" on the server with some loot being behind locked, unbreakable doors.

Side note:

Maybe add a level 8-9 spell, greater Knock with a higher DC? casters and serous lore investment would still have magical means to open. could make it so greater could also do some of those doors I was referring too.

Can a moderator or a DM lock this thread? There's not much else to discuss and with Irongron saying there's already an update in the works, we should probably wait to see what it is going to be like before we discuss this subject further. Not much point in it otherwise.

A small suggestion to it; why not keep it locked and trapped until the boss is killed. Then they fall away and anyone has access.
I can remember going to a location that we knew the boss wouldn't be an easy beat for us, but the party was able to distract it and the rogue talented enough to open trap/lock while the fight was ongoing, then everyone fleeing. Was fun and doable with a rogue. But if a stronger group came in and fought and killed said boss having that chest unlock wouldn't take too much away from the rogue I think. I mean, often your wizard whips out his pixie even when the rogue is standing right there. Just a thought.