Arelith

No, like, literally. That's all that needs to be said. Crushing apr access, an already low AB way of play, considered not optimal in the high ac meta, is a choice I cannot even fathom at this time. The last quarterstaff rogue I played couldn't even hit high end dragons with the +2 ab quarterstaffs used to have. And I rolled them because of the +2 ab going away.

My feedback is this is a really heinous choice and completely contradicts the entire design scheme of this video game, and dungeons and dragons. Let people have their monk dips. 20 monk is literally horrible to play, it's a utility belt with no ac and no ab.

So, just going to say, I respect your perspective here but I really disagree. Most other dips require a more significant class investment to get access to a major feature comparable to UBAB. Not to mention a monk dip on a dex character still comes with tremendous benefits including Monk AC and a whole slew of little bonuses that only monks get including cleave, evasion, deflect arrows, speed bonus and still mind. The only comparable dip that doesn't scale or doesn't have additional and significant feat requirements is Dark Blessing for charisma builds, which could honestly be moved to level 6 to make it a little more costly.

Monk UBAB was broken on anything but unarmed monks because of the abundance of alternative damage sources and activate on-hit abilities on Arelith.

Though, I will grant that returning the +2 AB or strength damage bonus to two-handed weapons would be a smart move now as quarterstaff is no longer a problem.

So, mechanically: fist monk is very good. Monk dips for say, cleric, remains good. Removing the free extra attacks for things like hexblade, ranger, spellsword, means the build space can open up some.

As for "goes against dnd" monks in tabletop can't multiclass outside of their select order,and usually that requires more or equal monk levels anyway. so, what

While I understand UBAB removal from weapons, I can't help but wonder if we're focusing on the wrong mechanics. There are plenty of mechanics that are much more offending than UBAB.

Time to beat a dead horse, but we're only here because UMD is no longer mandatory.

Drowboy wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:27 pm So, mechanically: fist monk is very good. Monk dips for say, cleric, remains good. Removing the free extra attacks for things like hexblade, ranger, spellsword, means the build space can open up some.

As for "goes against dnd" monks in tabletop can't multiclass outside of their select order,and usually that requires more or equal monk levels anyway. so, what

I agree with regards to the build space needing to open up a bit.

For so many two weapon fighting builds it was borderline mandatory to dip monk. After all, do you want MORE ATTACKS or not? But to access these attacks you needed to pick from a small handful of frankly bizarre looking weapons and be lawful.


Let's take a 27 ranger/3 monk as an example. This is really an optmal way to play a ranger. To play this way you again have to be lawful, and have to go until near end game with normal looking weapons until late epic levels when you suddenly drop the swords or hammers for random eastern blades, a stick or modified farming equipment. From the random alignment restriction to the oddly limited weapon options this seems like such a specific and niche character concept, but in fact this was basically the standard chassis for dual wielders in general.

So yes, replacing the whole flurry of blows monk dip paradigm was an important move for build and character narrative reasons. I am very glad that Joe the ranger doesn't have to be a kama wielding oddball in no armor at all who happens to be lawful for build reasons and moves his arms at 12 times a second like some crazy anime character. I almost felt like monk was this secret sauce that went good on all sorts of characters but replaced their helmets with propeller hats and light up sneakers. And now that is gone.

I do hope that negatively affected characters will be given full remake options, however.

Let's first take a look at the popular dip options. We'll make ranger, cleric, and spellsword the chassis:

Ranger (crossed out for duplicate skills)

• Monk 3: Discipline, Evasion, Tumble, Wis AC, 0-feat cost
• Div 3: Discipline, Cha saves, Cha Dmg, Cha AC, 3-feat cost
• Specialist 3: Discipline, Tumble, UMD, Spellcraft, 1 ESkillF, 1-feat cost
• Rogue 3: Evasion, Tumble, UMD, Weapon Finesse (is anyone really going to wait til lvl 26 for their finesse?)
• Bard 3: Discipline, Tumble, UMD, Spellcraft, 27/3 gets T2 Dweomer
• Swashbuckler: Discipline, Tumble, Int Dmg (2 or 3)
• Fighter 5: Discipline, 3 Free Feats, +1 AC (5 lvls), +6 Dmg (4 lvls) for 2-feat Cost
  note: Fighter 5 means not getting 26 Ranger for +5 bladethirst, so it could be 21/5/4 or 21/6/3 dipped with something else and use GMW bronze weapon

Cleric/Spellsword:

• Monk 3: Discipline, Evasion, Tumble, Wis AC, 0-feat cost
• Div 3: Discipline, Cha saves, Cha Dmg, Cha AC, 3-feat cost
• Specialist 3: Discipline, Tumble, UMD, Spellcraft, 1 ESkillF, 1-feat cost
• Rogue 3: Evasion, Tumble, UMD, Weapon Finesse, NO DISCIPLINE
• Bard 3: Discipline, Tumble, UMD, Spellcraft
• Swashbuckler: Discipline, Tumble, Int Dmg (2 to 6)
• Fighter 4: Discipline, 2 Free Feats, +6 Dmg (4 lvls) for 2-feat Cost

Monk dip remains just as competitive, but now they're toned down to where they don't completely outshine all other dips so players can choose to dip non-monk and don't feel as bad.

Anything more-than-dip monk builds that aren't fist builds (likely Cav or WM variants) are affected by this, but they are in the minority, and their ex-UBAB weapons (other than kamas for now) have improved base stats to buffer this change.

Healers dipping monk remains about the same unless it's one of those niche healer/monk build that also go into dual-wielding for quarterstaff.

My takeaway is this: Monk UBAB nerf wasn't enough for the dip and moving evasion to 4 or even 6 seems like the next step to do. Monk dip is still getting too much for its cost: Lawful alignment, no armor (negated by dex build), no shield (made up by Wis AC), and 3 levels.

i don't see the point of nerfing evasion. it is largely a PvE quality of life passive. people aren't killing each other in PvP with very many reflex-based damage spells.

otherwise yeah it's in a much better spot and still a valuable dip for many builds.

Would probably need to give the old wisdom AC a class levels treatment e.g. only granted if 1/3rd of total levels are monk for 3 level dips to be balanced. My concern is the possible lack of variety in monks losing all the weapons might cause, arelith building is about chasing those big numbers after all, is there any plans to modify combat mastery to entice weapon using monks or something of that nature?

The nerf was necessary but certain classes (i.e. spellsword, ranger, and hexblade) need to be reevaluated; they're classes that are built to make use of high APR. Spellsword is especially mediocre now without monk given that spellsword has been nerfed into oblivion already.

Please don't move evasion. That would be an overcorrection IMO.

LIAR LIAR wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:36 am

Archnon wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:44 pm So, just going to say, I respect your perspective here but I really disagree. Most other dips require a more significant class investment to get access to a major feature comparable to UBAB. Not to mention a monk dip on a dex character still comes with tremendous benefits including Monk AC and a whole slew of little bonuses that only monks get including cleave, evasion, deflect arrows, speed bonus and still mind. The only comparable dip that doesn't scale or doesn't have additional and significant feat requirements is Dark Blessing for charisma builds, which could honestly be moved to level 6 to make it a little more costly.

Monk UBAB was broken on anything but unarmed monks because of the abundance of alternative damage sources and activate on-hit abilities on Arelith.

Though, I will grant that returning the +2 AB or strength damage bonus to two-handed weapons would be a smart move now as quarterstaff is no longer a problem.

What AC?



Welcome to Arelith. If you search around a bit more, you can find what else the wis AC doesn't stack with on other pages.

I do believe they meant Wis to AC bonus.

I think it might be better to keep the monk bonuses but tie them to how deep in monk you go.

EG, each 3 levels you get +2 wis ac and some metric towards UBAB the deeper they go.

Here's my question: What are STR monks supposed to do with themselves now?

They had terrible AC before, which I would argue made STR a poor choice even when they had so many attacks per round. But now they don't have that either. Unless they go unarmed, which, well, now EVERYONE is going to do. Which means EVERYONE is going to be going super deep into monk. This super duper doesn't help multiclassing or variety. Monks are just going to become more homogenized as DEX based punchy boys.

Speaking of punchy boys, another argument I've heard in the past (but never agreed with) was that the reason certain alignment restrictions were in place (monk being lawful-only) was so that it couldn't be broken by multiclassing with Barbarian (any non-lawful). That doesn't even hold up now, because there's no monk APR to get rage damage (or the fact that Rage damage doesn't go on unarmed attacks anyways). I feel like if these changes stick, monks should be any non-chaotic alignment, like barbarian's any non-lawful. I suggest this because I feel like build diversity is something we're drifting further and further away from on the server, and a monk/barb multiclass might offer some really interesting and unique roleplay experiences that could really enrich the server (like say, a drunken fist style barb/monk!).

And while I don't know how to fix the STR monk, the monk's Flurry of Blows combat mode should at least work on monk weapons still. Isn't it a little silly that only unarmed attacks are the ones that get a bunch of attacks per round... while also having a combat mode that gives them yet another attack per round? As an alternative, maybe Flurry of Blows shouldn't work with unarmed attacks, and only functions with a monk weapon.

All of you who laughed at my punch cleric are now shamed!

No build change for me!

magistrasa wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:03 am Here's my question: What are STR monks supposed to do with themselves now?

They had terrible AC before, which I would argue made STR a poor choice even when they had so many attacks per round. But now they don't have that either. Unless they go unarmed, which, well, now EVERYONE is going to do. Which means EVERYONE is going to be going super deep into monk. This super duper doesn't help multiclassing or variety. Monks are just going to become more homogenized as DEX based punchy boys.

Speaking of punchy boys, another argument I've heard in the past (but never agreed with) was that the reason certain alignment restrictions were in place (monk being lawful-only) was so that it couldn't be broken by multiclassing with Barbarian (any non-lawful). That doesn't even hold up now, because there's no monk APR to get rage damage (or the fact that Rage damage doesn't go on unarmed attacks anyways). I feel like if these changes stick, monks should be any non-chaotic alignment, like barbarian's any non-lawful. I suggest this because I feel like build diversity is something we're drifting further and further away from on the server, and a monk/barb multiclass might offer some really interesting and unique roleplay experiences that could really enrich the server (like say, a drunken fist style barb/monk!).

And while I don't know how to fix the STR monk, the monk's Flurry of Blows combat mode should at least work on monk weapons still. Isn't it a little silly that only unarmed attacks are the ones that get a bunch of attacks per round... while also having a combat mode that gives them yet another attack per round? As an alternative, maybe Flurry of Blows shouldn't work with unarmed attacks, and only functions with a monk weapon.

STR unarmed monk is secretly 'okay' and in a fine place. Because if you look at the AC from dex/wis gear and buffs, you have 50+ ac and that's higher than your average STR build ac (excluding divine shield this time). You're likely not going to do it, because dex is many times better for the monk's kit (e-dodge access), but you can do it, you'll have a lot of fun playing it and surprise people with 120 damage crits sometimes. Is it as good as dex monk? Hell no but it doesnt mean it needs a buff either. For the same reasons STR Rogue or STR sorcerer dont need a buff right?

STR monk-*dip* with a *weapon* really just cannot be balanced with ubab. You need to balance every class that has synergy with ubab, to count for builds with and without it so they are both good - it's impossible with today's gearing options.

Monks are lawful because a life dedicated to perfecting oneself requires discipline and structure. However barbarians live as they see fit, and recent changes actually gave them rage bonuses to fists if you have improved unarmed combat.

Strength based monks had it slightly easier when monks got AC bonuses from levels, that of course was pulled due to dex builds being untouchable but got the various feats needed for epic dodge in return leaving strength in the proverbial dust. You won't break 50 AC though, at most you'll be equal to 2h or dual wielding strength builds though lacking the HP those builds can afford.

Baseili wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:03 pm you won't break 50 AC though,

Incorrect.

10 + 7 dex + 9 wis + 3 armor + 4 natural + 4 deflection + 1 ma + 1 boots + 1 skleen + 6 tumble + 4 haste = 52.

This is the general AC benchmark for str builds with monk dip. It is higher ac than none div str builds so I really dont understand what the problem with str monk is. Go do it unarmed with fighter/cot and deal tons of damage and have about the same or higher ac than average weapon masters and you'll get all the monk boons and ubab. It's not bad by any means. Just not as good and popular as dex based because monk access E-dodge.

AstralUniverse wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:20 pm

Baseili wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:03 pm you won't break 50 AC though,

Incorrect.

10 + 7 dex + 9 wis + 3 armor + 4 natural + 4 deflection + 1 ma + 1 boots + 1 skleen + 6 tumble + 4 haste = 52.

This is the general AC benchmark for str builds with monk dip. It is higher ac than none div str builds so I really dont understand what the problem with str monk is. Go do it unarmed with fighter/cot and deal tons of damage and have about the same or higher ac than average weapon masters and you'll get all the monk boons and ubab. It's not bad by any means. Just not as good and popular as dex based because monk access E-dodge.

7 dex mod. You have 12 base dex on your str monk?

4 deflection. That's a shield pot. Wouldnt rely on that.

My mistake, for some reason I didn't count tumble and haste.

12 dex is possible but you're either sapping con or str to get it, given how rough starting str unarmed is I wouldn't want to give up con.

Zavandar wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:55 pm

AstralUniverse wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:20 pm

Baseili wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:03 pm you won't break 50 AC though,

Incorrect.

10 + 7 dex + 9 wis + 3 armor + 4 natural + 4 deflection + 1 ma + 1 boots + 1 skleen + 6 tumble + 4 haste = 52.

This is the general AC benchmark for str builds with monk dip. It is higher ac than none div str builds so I really dont understand what the problem with str monk is. Go do it unarmed with fighter/cot and deal tons of damage and have about the same or higher ac than average weapon masters and you'll get all the monk boons and ubab. It's not bad by any means. Just not as good and popular as dex based because monk access E-dodge.

7 dex mod. You have 12 base dex on your str monk?

4 deflection. That's a shield pot. Wouldnt rely on that.

I guess you can start with 10 dex, 13 int and squeeze out another str. If you do that, it's 51 ac.

Shield pot is situational, I agree, but it's how I calculate ac. you can remove that ac but then you also remove it from the other str builds in the comparison so same difference.

In order to fully benefit from 3 monk you need to fulfill the following requirements:

-Don't be a non-cloth armor build
-Don't use a shield, thus no 10% piercing DI or two more stats for you ( or at least one, greater forging runes are pretty affordable )
-Put points into wisdom, thus most likely losing CON ( if not, skill points or damage )
-Have a class slot to spare to begin with

This means DEX only, this also means that a lot of monk dip stuff was really actually bad or incredibly annoying to gear ( and still bad ).

A couple of other things too:

-Cleric monk dip ain't good, never was good to begin with
-Neither is spellsword dip. DEX spellsword is bad
-Ranger monk dip was strong, then it stopped being strong a year ago, then this thing happened and now it's really bad
-Rangers are still bad ( but kind of comfy in PvE )
-Unless your name is Johnny Twin-Fang, of course
-People will indeed not take weapon finesse if dipping rogue cause all you do in PvE as DEX is tank anyway

The monk dip just kind of makes a lot of other builds "work" by getting their AC up to viable levels. The monk wis AC helps a lot of other builds achieve survivable AC with a reasonably fair overall investment.

If you make monk AC scale with monk levels you're basically gutting a number of builds that rely on that AC to survive against anything with halfway decent AB these days. Given the dmg output for str & crt builds, or alpha strike stealth build, you need AC & epic dodge to survive.

Examples of some builds:
- Ranger/Monk combos
- Multiple Spellsword builds
- Cleric/Monk combos
- Archer/Monk Combos
- Arcanist/Monk (more obscure but exists)
- "Other Dex" (could be SD, Rogue or other builds that may run a monk dip)

I'm sure this is not even remotely comprehensive. If you nerf the way monk AC interacts as a 3 class dip, you're basically pulling a fair bit of AC out from under a lot of different builds. They will then be far weaker against anything with good alpha strike. Str builds will "on the whole" become comparatively a bit overpowered.

And all the while, you'll still have deeper investment monks with e-dodge & crazy AC anyways. I hate to say it, as much as they're vilified, I think monk dips are kind of essential for build diversity within the dex build world.

The overall power level of the server is super high. When you have builds that can crit in the hundreds and one/two shot you, survivability is super important. It's the same with saves vs. save-or-die spells. The issue to me is when you have builds that can push crazy high AC #'s (with and without e-dodge) and actually really put out damage. That's why Ubab change makes sense, you're taking the teeth out of the dip a bit with the common weapon combos which is great. I just hope we don't pull back monk dip AC without limiting the accessibility of +4-+5 weapons and dialing back AB #'s and/or dmg output potential.