Arelith

This morning I went through a dozen Discord channels of the official Arelith Discord.

On Andunor, Sencliff, Minmir and Guldorand all I found a post and a link to a private discord of the designate name and place.

Are these secondary Discords really neccessary? What do they provide that the official one can not? I remember some years back there was a push from the Staff side to get people into the official one rather than hundreds of small ones.

What changed?

Definitely not necessary. I find it refreshing to not use them because everything feels like reading a script in roleplay when you pay them any attention.

I joined quite a few in the past but decided to leave them all, with the exception of the official discord since they will inevitably lead to meta gaming at some point. I understand that some people like to have their own server that they control but for me the official one is enough.

They provide the ability for characters to form telepathic links, and alliances that cannot be broken by any amount of roleplay.

Come at me.

Hazard wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:31 am They [can] provide the ability for characters to form telepathic links, and alliances that cannot be broken by any amount of roleplay.

Come at me.

@ Fixed your broad brush for you.

Hazard wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:31 am They provide the ability for characters to form telepathic links, and alliances that cannot be broken by any amount of roleplay.

Come at me.

Whilst this is meant to be a joke, this is definitely an ongoing concern.

Try to make sure all of your IC information remains in the game. It's fine to chat with your friends! Being social is great, having little reminders about things that are already clearly public and in game is fine. Any other IC information sharing through discords is problematic.

We want players to make an effort whilst they're logged in. Our rules for the server encourage a certain standard of basic behaviour and a focus on telling a story through roleplay. If you are chilling with your friends on discord, but also in game and actively roleplaying your character, there's no problem at all.

Have fun, and keep IC and OOC separate.

Skarain wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 7:52 am Are these secondary Discords really neccessary?

OOC communication isnt necessary at all to play this game but you cant really argue with what is convenient for other players. I know for myself that I dont really have any interest in arelith related discord except build/mecahnics chats with players and devs and mechanics brainstorming but for other players having one chat for each settlement in a discord server is different than having entire servers with many different chats for different topics (military, culture, arts, events, whatever) and the fact people end up preferring the separate discord servers even though it's potentially more cumbersome eventually goes to say something. And here we are. I dont think we have much legitimacy criticizing how players keep in touch oocly out of the game, and that's a double edged sword but there's little to do about it. I do however think that the official discord shouldnt promote the separate servers with links (I do like arelith 3.0 as well because it's properly moderated).

Artenides wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:30 am I joined quite a few in the past but decided to leave them all, with the exception of the official discord since they will inevitably lead to meta gaming at some point. I understand that some people like to have their own server that they control but for me the official one is enough.

This is why I'm very happy with the fact that every settlement/factional Discord I'm a part of either has DMs in it, or the DMs have been directly invited to oversee it if they so desire. And that it's enshrined in the server rules (and actually actively enforced) that any attempts to use the Discord as an attempt to either metagame or metacommunicate during tense situations will result in you likely no longer having access to said Discord.

I rarely stick in a single settlement/community between characters, so I've had the opportunity to be in a lot of different faction & settlement Discords - and almost universally they've been a showcase for the absolute worst aspects of Arelith's community. Rampant shit-talking, immensely toxic behavior, deliberate attempts to OOCly coordinate to exclude people from any meaningful opportunity to oppose the status quo IG.

The DMs have, for a long time, refused to police Discord use in any way, shape or form - but that's something that appears to be in the process of changing, and it's something that I've been an active advocate of for years now. I'm just hoping that they end up doing so in a fashion that's both proactive and unbiased.

For those of us with limited play time, being able to coordinate time and dates for events is very useful, even more so in a dedicated channel on a dedicated server.

Discord, as any chat rooms, are just as good as the people who use it.

Most settlement discords predate the official arelith discord, which is why they exist. Frankly, they also operate with a clear vote with your feet dynamic. If they are toxic, people will leave. The few I am on the moderators are aware of this and try to regulate it.

On top of this, the Arelith discord is completely overwhelming. Where as if you have more questions or mechanics questions, I would much rather bring them into a settlement discord, personally.

Frankly, this shouting from the rooftops that discord is the problem is ridiculous. Discord is a tool. Just like Skype, just like the forums, just like tells in game. Discord is not toxic. Some people are toxic and if they are on a discord and the moderators do nothing, I would encourage everyone to vote with your feet and leave it.

I have been against settlement discords for a while now. They make communities more insular, not less, which is something that has been proven over time. While DMs are often in them, expecting them to oversee settlement discords and the game and do other DMs business isn't really realistic. I have personally seen and been a target of extreme toxicity in settlement discords, and know for a fact there have been channels in the past DMs are not privy to. There have even been nsfw channels.

The settlement-specific channels in the official are more than sufficient for talking among each other about specific settlements. Each settlement has 4 channels to itself. I've seen people make the argument that they feel more comfortable posting things in settlement discords than the official, but isn't that just telling on yourself? The rules should be the same across both.

The only thing I give some ground to is faction discords, and that is only because they are not accommodated in the official. They can still be breeding grounds for toxicity and become terrible echo chambers, but they are at least not gating off significant portions of the server.

Many people argue "well people will just make private discords anyway if settlement ones are abolished and get up to bad behavior". To that I say "let them". Those practices have a way of eventually being found out.

I do think it is time for settlement/faction discords to bite the dust. If you are a moderator or owner of these discords, consider closing your doors and moving over to official. There should be nothing said in your private discord that can't be said on officialcord.

But, I suspect we will persist in having these discords despite their clear harm to the overall community.

Wethrinea wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:36 am For those of us with limited play time, being able to coordinate time and dates for events is very useful, even more so in a dedicated channel on a dedicated server.

Discord, as any chat rooms, are just as good as the people who use it.

+1

There is more than one way of doing that through legitimate IG channels (-factions, IG message boards, tells etc.)

I don't use Discord and have never struggled with the scheduling of IG events.

Some observations,
-Players will abuse any system.
-Not all systems are equally abusable.
-Not all systems are equally monitored.
-Players are bad at monitoring their friends.
-Players will excuse and rationalize any negative behavior.
-It is hard to maintain an ethical position when surrounded by players with less stringent ethical positions.
-Player's goal posts of behavior are easily and often moved in the direction of permissive and ignoble behavior.

Some conclusions,
-All systems and forms of communication will be and are being abused.
-Systems that are harder to abuse are better than systems that are easy to abuse.
-The more fairly and unbiased a system can be monitored and policed the better.
-Those tasked with monitoring and policing should be anonymous and/or not tasked with monitoring and policing their friends.

Answers are harder. As seenin this thread,
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=32135&p=253536&hil ... ve#p253536

At the end of the day I agree with this,

Ork wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:33 pm I do think it is time for settlement/faction discords to bite the dust. If you are a moderator or owner of these discords, consider closing your doors and moving over to official. There should be nothing said in your private discord that can't be said on officialcord.

Ork wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:33 pm I do think it is time for settlement/faction discords to bite the dust. If you are a moderator or owner of these discords, consider closing your doors and moving over to official. There should be nothing said in your private discord that can't be said on officialcord.

But, I suspect we will persist in having these discords despite their clear harm to the overall community.

Yea, that's just not the way I think about things. It's like saying, "If you and your friends don't have anything to hide, then you should let me read your text messages." There is a place for people wanting to make something themselves or have private conversations with their friends. They may not like the fact that someone not in the friend group is reading everything. Maybe they are going to share pictures of their family, talk about a real problem they have been going through in their lives and they would prefer to only be sharing that information with friends.

Sometimes people don't want to have a chaperone for their friendships. Privacy isn't always a bad thing.

I_Am_King_Midas wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:10 pm There is a place for people wanting to make something themselves or have private conversations with their friends. They may not like the fact that someone not in the friend group is reading everything. Maybe they are going to share pictures of their family, talk about a real problem they have been going through in their lives and they would prefer to only be sharing that information with friends.

Sometimes people don't want to have a chaperone for their friendships. Privacy isn't always a bad thing.

except none of this should be applicable to a settlement discord and the fact it is pitched as such is telling.

a settlement is not your private friend group.

There are actually benefits to the settlement Discords that do not exist within the settlement channels in the official Arelith Discord. In the settlement specific Discords, multiple channels can be set for the different divisions of the government. This allows the players of the government positions to do a number of things without all the information getting lost in the one settlement channel in the official Discord.

For example:
All the divisions can post a description of the pin they wear.
The military can post the numbers for the colors of their uniform.
Each division can post a poll asking "which of these meeting times work better for you?" so that they may try to include as many people as possible.

The below concerns, are not specific to settlement Discords. This could apply to any faction or just a group of friends. I see no one is mentioning that fact that there are two Arelith Discords either.

Curve wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:44 pm Some observations,
-Players will abuse any system.
-Not all systems are equally abusable.
-Not all systems are equally monitored.
-Players are bad at monitoring their friends.
-Players will excuse and rationalize any negative behavior.
-It is hard to maintain an ethical position when surrounded by players with less stringent ethical positions.
-Player's goal posts of behavior are easily and often moved in the direction of permissive and ignoble behavior.

Some conclusions,
-All systems and forms of communication will be and are being abused.
-Systems that are harder to abuse are better than systems that are easy to abuse.
-The more fairly and unbiased a system can be monitored and policed the better.
-Those tasked with monitoring and policing should be anonymous and/or not tasked with monitoring and policing their friends.

I've been any in many Discords and I have to say, Curve, that your observations are not entirely accurate. Not ALL players will abuse the system. Not ALL players are bad at monitoring their friends. Not ALL players will excuse and rationalize any negative behavior. Not all systems and forms of communication are being abused. Sure, some people are doing all those things. And some people are doing those things in game as well. And while we DMs in game to monitor the behavior, not everyone reports rulebreaks, and I'm sure both IG and OOC friendships affect some DMs decisions.

There is no perfect system for the game or for the Discords.

Wethrinea wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:36 am Discord, as any chat rooms, are just as good as the people who use it.

I would say more on this topic but I haven't got the time right now.

Blood on my Lips wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:44 pm For example:
All the divisions can post a description of the pin they wear.
The military can post the numbers for the colors of their uniform.
Each division can post a poll asking "which of these meeting times work better for you?" so that they may try to include as many people as possible.

1. Can be done in game
2. Can be done in game
3. Can be done in the official under the events channel

Blood on my Lips wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:44 pm In the settlement specific Discords, multiple channels can be set for the different divisions of the government. This allows the players of the government positions to do a number of things without all the information getting lost in the one settlement channel in the official Discord.

Except that the truth is its not for the sake of organization it's for information moderation via tags. To make it easier to speak about IC stuff that's relevant to the division. Hmm... I wonder why that's even necessary if there isnt supposed to be in game 'foig' stuff told on discord at all.

Just don't have friends, like me.
No friends = no discord = no metagaming

200 IQ

Ork wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:33 pm I do think it is time for settlement/faction discords to bite the dust. If you are a moderator or owner of these discords, consider closing your doors and moving over to official. There should be nothing said in your private discord that can't be said on officialcord.

But, I suspect we will persist in having these discords despite their clear harm to the overall community.

While I understand the sentiment of pushing for these types of discords not to exist or to be heavily discouraged, and despite the myriad of serious problems that can and do occur with these discords, having a discord for the pirate crew I help run makes things so much easier for me to focus on the in-game things I care about. It's mainly just a lot of little things that help me keep things organized, more inclusive, and gives me more time to run events in-game without it being as much of an ooc chore.

It makes it much easier to remind folks when events are so they do not miss them. It makes it easier for me to schedule events at a time non-euro players of the faction can participate from time to time, or for us to set up a quick impromptu in-game encounter if the characters have not bumped naturally into one another lately. Nor is our smaller discord as overwhelming, distracting or unforgivingly snarky towards newer players or players who are a little bit more on the shy side.

I also appreciate the little ooc things that are harder to emulate in-game, such as having a screenshot channel of all the past events together that is turning into a scrapbook of the faction's hijinx and shared moments. I love our channel dedicated to the shanties and sea songs our bard players create, and that every now and again we have collected enough to toss them into an in-game book. I like being able to let folks know "Hey, sorry I'll be sparse for a couple of days for reason X" which I'd not really care to announce to the whole community.

We do not have a voice chat channel. All event notices are also put on our in-game notice boards ahead of time. Outside of crew moots, I try my level best to make sure non-faction members loitering around feel welcome and are actively included.

TLTR; Much of this can technically be done via in-game tools and on the official discord, but if they were extensive and robust enough that I felt that a small discord was near-redundant, I'd already be using those.

Hazard wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:17 pm Just don't have friends, like me.
No friends = no discord = no metagaming

200 IQ

I've always liked your attitude (especially in regards to topics like this) and considered you an arelith friend, just saying. <3
You're doing it the right way.

AstralUniverse wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:00 pm

Hazard wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:17 pm Just don't have friends, like me.
No friends = no discord = no metagaming

200 IQ

I've always liked your attitude (especially in regards to topics like this) and considered you an arelith friend, just saying. <3
You're doing it the right way.

<3

I do believe faction discord is super useful and important.

On the other hand, I've left all the settlement and region discords as they were all awful.