Arelith

Some of our most classic fantasy tropes revolve around dumber more brutish types: the simpleton half orc or the illiterate barbarian, for example. There are also a lot of INT neutral character archetypes like classic paladin driven more by a sense of morals and duty than anything else.

But then you have skill points and expertise feats. Oh boy, the expertise feats. The builds I see posted tend to take expertise and probably improved expertise. This creates a dynamic that punishes role players who genuinely want to play people who are dumb, average or just moderately above average in terms of intelligence. After all, isn't 10 the average ability score for typical people?

Maybe I'm the only one but I'm not following where you're going with this. Are you suggesting skills not be attached to Int or a change for feat requirements?

I think expertise could afford to not be intelligence requiring, as it does push almost all melee builds into much higher than average intelligence (if 8 is the true average for a human, for example).

I'm really looking forwards to the long anticipated skill rework, because right now with previously useless skills being made relevant and the addition of additional skills, the skill tax very real right now.

Please give wizards +1 or 2 skill points.
Edit for clarity: self serving comment based on Nitro's comment.

As an aside, what's stopping you taking the int and role-playing as dumb anyway?

Morgy wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:06 pm I think expertise could afford to not be intelligence requiring, as it does push almost all melee builds into much higher than average intelligence (if 8 is the true average for a human, for example).

8 per NWN itself is below "able to speak normally" so I don't think that's the average. I hope not.

Nitro wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:11 pm I'm really looking forwards to the long anticipated skill rework, because right now with previously useless skills being made relevant and the addition of additional skills, the skill tax very real right now.

I'm pretty sure the skill rework has already happened.

Drowboy wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:22 pm 8 per NWN itself is below "able to speak normally" so I don't think that's the average. I hope not.

Am I the only one who noticed the maddening volume of characters with speech impediments running around?

Am I in some kind of time warp here ... What are we talking about?

1.) The skill rework is over.
2.) There are a handful of builds that can take low-int and get away with it because they don't need the skills and don't plan on taking expertise. Anything EDR based as well as anything that builds around regaining life. Barbarian, Ranger, Earthkin Defender, Hexblade, all hav some opportunity to be built around low intelligence, as do a number of caster classes. There are ways to slot other fighters into these builds if you run high constitution and manage to get some gear that gives damage immunities.

I say this, and yet, I am glad to acknowledge that I hate expertise and improved expertise. However, I don't think we are really Int dependent the way we were say 1 year ago..... hence the time warp.

-XXX- wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:47 pm

Drowboy wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:22 pm 8 per NWN itself is below "able to speak normally" so I don't think that's the average. I hope not.

Am I the only one who noticed the maddening volume of characters with speech impediments running around?

Nope, just the sharp uptick in those that can't be bothered to speak at all.

Generally speaking though, there will not be any further skill reworks. It is already done, the most argument I've seen here is that weapon master requires you to have some int for expertise and I can't be bothered.
Balance is fine, everyone got additional skill points, even the clerics.

I haven't noticed an uptick but there are always and always will be characters with speech impediments or quirky speech patterns as that's an easy thing to latch on to for RP... you see it frequently in PNP and all the time on NWN servers. It's something to get used to if you're on a busy server because that's just one of the tropes you'll see over and over and over. I do suspect there are a lot of players who gave their characters odd speech early on then regret that they're stuck with it months later.

I wonder what would happen if expertise lost the int requirement. Maybe weaponmaster could still require 13 int to take... maybe it could be like knockdown where the base has no requirement but improved does. I think with the extra skill points it's very possible to make characters with 10 or possibly even 8 or 9 intelligence now but that would mostly be non-wizard casters who don't use expertise. It would be nice if they were more viable on others as playing average or even stupid characters is just as fun if not more so than smart sometimes.

It's pretty hilarious this comes up when there are 8 int builds out there that are probably superior to their 14 int counterparts. Having int be taxed by a feat is GOOD. It would be bad if expertise lost its prerequisites.

FYI, one of those builds is barbarian.

Nitro wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:11 pm I'm really looking forwards to the long anticipated skill rework, because right now with previously useless skills being made relevant and the addition of additional skills, the skill tax very real right now.

The skill rework already happened. It's done. Sorry bro.

Echohawk wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 6:55 pm

-XXX- wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:47 pm

Drowboy wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:22 pm 8 per NWN itself is below "able to speak normally" so I don't think that's the average. I hope not.

Am I the only one who noticed the maddening volume of characters with speech impediments running around?

Nope, just the sharp uptick in those that can't be bothered to speak at all.

Generally speaking though, there will not be any further skill reworks. It is already done, the most argument I've seen here is that weapon master requires you to have some int for expertise and I can't be bothered.
Balance is fine, everyone got additional skill points, even the clerics.

Wizard's didn't.

-XXX- wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:47 pm

Drowboy wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:22 pm 8 per NWN itself is below "able to speak normally" so I don't think that's the average. I hope not.

Am I the only one who noticed the maddening volume of characters with speech impediments running around?

People seem to rp that more as low charisma. *shrug*

Farlius wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:12 pm Please give wizards +1 or 2 skill points.
Edit for clarity: self serving comment based on Nitro's comment.

As an aside, what's stopping you taking the int and role-playing as dumb anyway?

Also I don't think people tend to mind much when you underplay a stat, not that most can tell anyway. As a DM I'm generally more leninent on underplaying a stat than overplaying anyway. Especially as things like Charisma/Wisdom/Inteligence tend to overlap a little.

Near every sensible warrior requires the use of strategy. The ability to develop a strategy comes strictly from INT and/or WIS. With that in mind it's not hard to see the necessity of expecting INT mechanically for combat-based feats.

-XXX- wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:47 pmAm I the only one who noticed the maddening volume of characters with speech impediments running around?

I've never thought of character complexity as maddening.

It's refreshing to see people putting effort into RPing something more than sword swinging, especially when it's a flaw.

I personally don't find deliberately mistyping in barely legible english to be much additional complexity to a character.

I think most of those people are going for some take on accents, whether that be "dwarven" scottish or just country bumpkin. As someone living in the US south, I can assure you that accents are not in any way shape or form a product on intelligence, charisma, or any other character trait measured through our attributes in this game. They are just about upbringing and local culture. Instead we often label them based on our perceptions of the region they come out of. I don't think these people are RPing any of their skills but just trying to build a character with some history and that is always to be respected. If you have trouble understanding someone who is talking with an 'accent' then go deeper and make a point of it in character.

My preference when it comes to accents is usually a description of a voice, if within the player's means. That leaves a lot of give and take between both players, which is usually a good thing. Pitch, timbre, quirks.

However, I accept there are those who will find it more fun to try to spell their accents out in dialect, and I don't begrudge them it - but I do tend to (exit -> stage right) at the sight of large groups of dwarves.

Edit: On topic... I disagree. Everyone got more skill points except wizards (::sadface::) Intelligence has never been less necessary unless you're a wizard, or a DeathAttackDCAssassin (does anyone actually build these?) Edit2: I'm bad at math and dumb.

If anything, a lot more builds can get away with only pushing int to 13 and giving up the extra skill point from the odd attribute, since they still have one more than they used to.

The Rambling Midget wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:09 am

-XXX- wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:47 pmAm I the only one who noticed the maddening volume of characters with speech impediments running around?

I've never thought of character complexity as maddening.

It's refreshing to see people putting effort into RPing something more than sword swinging, especially when it's a flaw.

Nitro wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:11 am I personally don't find deliberately mistyping in barely legible english to be much additional complexity to a character.

Nitro summed up my feelings about this perfectly.

As has been mentioned already, this is a trope - one that has been played into far too often for it to seem fresh or original at this point.
Furthermore, if I can't decipher what someone's saying no matter how hard I try, they lose my attention pretty fast.
I guess that all that profound complexity tends to go right over my head in these cases.

-XXX- wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:47 pm

Drowboy wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:22 pm 8 per NWN itself is below "able to speak normally" so I don't think that's the average. I hope not.

Am I the only one who noticed the maddening volume of characters with speech impediments running around?

You mean halflings?

"Intelligence is too important"

I dont see the problem. Make it even more important for all I care. I like the expertise int tax. Only barbarians, sorcerers and rangers can sometimes get away with 8 int and I dont see a problem with that either - it's even a bit thematic that it's easier for these classes to play 8 int builds.

Nitro wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:11 pm I'm really looking forwards to the long anticipated skill rework, because right now with previously useless skills being made relevant and the addition of additional skills, the skill tax very real right now.

oh, buddy,

-XXX- wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 5:37 am As has been mentioned already, this is a trope - one that has been played into far too often for it to seem fresh or original at this point.
Furthermore, if I can't decipher what someone's saying no matter how hard I try, they lose my attention pretty fast.
I guess that all that profound complexity tends to go right over my head in these cases.

I guess so.

Your loss.