Quarterbreaking

[I will never sleep]

Hello yes it is me. It has been almost a year since the last thread on the uninteractive nature of larceny here.

I would like to call it into discussion again and question why quarterbreaking and theft is allowed and within rules.

"That fixture does not seem to belong to you. Please note that removing other people's fixtures without RP is a breach of the Be Nice rule, and that we log every active vandalism."

I have never, not once, ever, seen this enforced. It comes up every single time you move a fixture around and seems like a relic of 2010-era Arelith. This "rule" just seems in stark contrast to the theft rules. Theft rules let you steal 1 item/fixture a day and obviously nothing about theft is nice, so where do you draw the line? It says excessive theft is griefing and a breach of Be Nice, but where do you draw that line? Is it based off the value of items stolen? One or two or three things? Do fixtures carry more weight than items?

I am not sure why quarterbreaking is even allowed. I don't get why what is essentially uninteractive pvp is allowed. It feels more like an OOC transaction than roleplay. And no, I don't consider an anonymous note or sign, with no opportunity for reprisal or even clues to identify, Roleplay. In fact, there is history of entire plots being hijacked by being quarterbroke and people taking plot items with 0 interaction or credence given to other players, ic or ooc, and this is fine and within rules. I don't really think this is Nice or a good breach of plot.

The last thread ended on this note:

At this point, this serves little more than room to vent over present observed and perceived behaviors of other players. Ultimately theft is allowed. Roleplay is expected for thefts, be them fixtures or chest items.

Expected, but not required? Why do the grand majority of quarterbreaks go "unsolved"?

At this point, I'm on the side of believing a fully upgraded quarter shouldn't be something you can break into (ie it should be mechanically impregnable). Either that, or quarterbreaking should be easier and actual theft should be impossible.

You can play a thief, without ever stealing from another player. It wouldn't be as much of a problem, if thievery was not so closely in line with what is essentially griefing. All pvping me means, strictly mechanically, is I would have to spend 4 hours offline or elsewhere while my respawn timer falls off. Taking my items without any interaction is taking a much greater time investment from me.

I (and I doubt I am alone in this) consider it to be rp when I get to interact

Quarterthieves don't interact. It's why you are expected to rp before pvp. imagine how angry people would be if assassins could attack you without rp. "Great interaction", people would say sarcastically. Go figure, that's what people say when they are victims of quartertheft.

Because that's rp. Interaction.

Imagine if you were playing a game of pnp. You come to the table and another player goes "oh by the way I stole your armor after last session," and you look to the dm and they go "yeah I encouraged them to leave a note but they didnt feel like it".

[Curve]

A previous thread was posted so I wonder what this new thread will bring to the conversation that has not been said before. No shade on you, OP, but I don’t read any new evidence or revelations that would shift the conversation in a meaningful way in your post.

[ZeroPointEnergy]

The administrator wants quarterbreakering.

[I will never sleep]

The administrator wants quarterbreakering.

Why?

Quarterbreaking, itself, I can understand. With repeated statements of not wanting people to be locked out of places. But it's almost always used in a destructive way.

[Gilbert K]

I have never, not once, ever, seen this enforced.

And you never will, as long as the thief players choose to keep their punishments private, as is their rights as a player. The DM team will never disclose punishments they dole out and we should all be thankful of that.

It says excessive theft is griefing and a breach of Be Nice, but where do you draw that line? Is it based off the value of items stolen? One or two or three things? Do fixtures carry more weight than items?

Use some common sense here. The rules you claim to be familiar with explicitly state that it's one item per real life day that a thief can steal. But even if they abide by those rules to the letter and wait exactly 24 hours before robbing you again, it can still be considered griefing if it's a constant stream of thefts with little interactive roleplay. I do not know your case, and I don't think it's a good idea to explain it to us here, but if you feel that you are being griefed, feel free to send in a report to the DMs stating your case.

Everything else

It sounds to me like you have one of those "Must Win" mentalities. I understand that losing stuff you worked hard on making/obtaining is lame. But that's part of Arelith. You can silently judge another player's roleplay for yourself and think "Oh, that guy's a griefer because I didn't get to see him break into my quarter", but as someone who gets his quarter broken into regularly, I think it's a great mechanic, and as long as I can trust the community to abide by the rules (and I can report people who don't), I'm happy.

And yes, roleplay regarding thefts is expected, but what are you hoping that the thief will do? Leave you a message saying "Haha, I stole your item"? That's not engaging. It's not smart on their part, either.

Your suggestion to make "fully upgraded" quarters impregnable is not only impossible, as thieves WILL find a way inside without straight up picking the lock, it also cements my belief in your "Must Win" attitude. What is Arelith without some element of danger? The game is chatroom-y enough as it is. You don't lose XP from death anymore, and the server is easier to level and get epic gear than ever.

I hope you come to terms with the way things are on this server.

[ZeroPointEnergy]

The administrator wants quarterbreakering.

Why?

Quarterbreaking, itself, I can understand. With repeated statements of not wanting people to be locked out of places. But it's almost always used in a destructive way.

Looking through the old discord messages it's really down to a few things:

1. There should be conflict.
2. It might, maybe, eventually get a revamp.
3. No place should be inaccessible to other players.

[-XXX-]

I assume that quarterbreaking exists solely for the rare instances when characters need to break in to forward an ongoing story (i.e. unbreakable door =/= plot armor).

That being said:
1) don't keep valuable items in a quarter chest
2) replacing a fixture takes maybe a minute

While a lot could be said about how uninteractive breaking into quarters to can be, doing that just to steal someone's stuff while they're offline seems like one of the more pointless things that one could be doing ATM (One can get much more gp for much less trouble by simply tackling the server's PvE content).

[Fluffybirb]

This, all of this. I personally hate that QB is even a thing, as nothing productive comes from it. There's no balance or counter for it. Maybe if it became something more interactive, where you were given clues to who could have done this then maybe it would be better.

All in all, it's just... such a meh thing to see in an RP server. Yes, I get why it's a thing. But in some way it should create roll play, not just having your work vanish with nothing else. Maybe if there was a way to add a chase, give QB a risk would be interesting... but right now, I'm not really a fan. So- I agree with this post, very nice.

[The GrumpyCat]

I have never, not once, ever, seen this enforced.

And you never will, as long as the thief players choose to keep their punishments private, as is their rights as a player. The DM team will never disclose punishments they dole out and we should all be thankful of that.

It says excessive theft is griefing and a breach of Be Nice, but where do you draw that line? Is it based off the value of items stolen? One or two or three things? Do fixtures carry more weight than items?

Use some common sense here. The rules you claim to be familiar with explicitly state that it's one item per real life day that a thief can steal. But even if they abide by those rules to the letter and wait exactly 24 hours before robbing you again, it can still be considered griefing if it's a constant stream of thefts with little interactive roleplay. I do not know your case, and I don't think it's a good idea to explain it to us here, but if you feel that you are being griefed, feel free to send in a report to the DMs stating your case.

Everything else

It sounds to me like you have one of those "Must Win" mentalities. I understand that losing stuff you worked hard on making/obtaining is lame. But that's part of Arelith. You can silently judge another player's roleplay for yourself and think "Oh, that guy's a griefer because I didn't get to see him break into my quarter", but as someone who gets his quarter broken into regularly, I think it's a great mechanic, and as long as I can trust the community to abide by the rules (and I can report people who don't), I'm happy.

And yes, roleplay regarding thefts is expected, but what are you hoping that the thief will do? Leave you a message saying "Haha, I stole your item"? That's not engaging. It's not smart on their part, either.

Your suggestion to make "fully upgraded" quarters impregnable is not only impossible, as thieves WILL find a way inside without straight up picking the lock, it also cements my belief in your "Must Win" attitude. What is Arelith without some element of danger? The game is chatroom-y enough as it is. You don't lose XP from death anymore, and the server is easier to level and get epic gear than ever.

I hope you come to terms with the way things are on this server.

The last part of this post is a little harsh - but the first two bits (rule infractions being private and using common sense with fixture thefts) are pretty much word for word what I would have said.

We do get reports for fixture thefts, but we don't get that many. Maybe one or two a month.

That means one of two things.

1) Fixture losses to the extent and manner which they bother players don't happen much.
2) Fixture losses happen and people get upset, but don't report it. At which point they can't really be that upset can they?

If you want impregnable storage there's citizenship storage. Just use that.

[I will never sleep]

It sounds to me like you have one of those "Must Win" mentalities. I understand that losing stuff you worked hard on making/obtaining is lame. But that's part of Arelith. You can silently judge another player's roleplay for yourself and think "Oh, that guy's a griefer because I didn't get to see him break into my quarter", but as someone who gets his quarter broken into regularly, I think it's a great mechanic, and as long as I can trust the community to abide by the rules (and I can report people who don't), I'm happy.

I have the mentality that Arelith is a Roleplay server, first and foremost, and what quantifies RolePlay is interaction. There is nothing interactive about being stolen from.

And yes, roleplay regarding thefts is expected, but what are you hoping that the thief will do? Leave you a message saying "Haha, I stole your item"? That's not engaging. It's not smart on their part, either.

Be creative. I've RolePlayed pickpocketing someone before (more than just pushing the button and running away), as well as taking people's things.

Your suggestion to make "fully upgraded" quarters impregnable is not only impossible, as thieves WILL find a way inside without straight up picking the lock, it also cements my belief in your "Must Win" attitude. What is Arelith without some element of danger? The game is chatroom-y enough as it is. You don't lose XP from death anymore, and the server is easier to level and get epic gear than ever.

People SNEAKING in is fine- as there is a palpable chance to be caught and thus INTERACT. Is Interaction winning now? Quarterbreaking just encourages you to steal while people are offline.


--

2) replacing a fixture takes maybe a minute

Not every fixture.

doing that just to somebody's stuff while they're offline seems like one of the more pointless things that one could be doing ATM (One can get much more gp for much less trouble by simply tackling the server's PvE content).

Almost like it's almost always done to spite or be destructive.

[neverwinternightly]

Looking through the old discord messages it's really down to a few things:

1. There should be conflict.
2. It might, maybe, eventually get a revamp.
3. No place should be inaccessible to other players.

I'm actually sort of curious about number three on this list. From what I can tell, Guldorand in particular seems to hold a distinct advantage in that both the City Watch building and the State House's backroom/upper level cannot actually be broken into. (Yes, you can sneak in, but that's not what this thread is about)

All other military and political housings can be (as far as I'm aware). Seems a weird thing to have inconsistent.

I bring up those buildings in particular though because I think quarterbreaking CAN BE an amazing tool. Hiring someone to try and dig through state secrets or plant some fake intel is really cool in my opinion.

I'm not sure how I would really change it if given the option though. I know how incredibly demoralizing it can be to have something you figure is secure just vanish into nothing. I know there are ways around that (citizen storage or just keeping it in your inventory), but I don't know if that's really the most reasonable solution in some cases.

[-XXX-]

There does not seem to be any way of breaking into moored ships as well.

[I will never sleep]

That means one of two things.

1) Fixture losses to the extent and manner which they bother players don't happen much.
2) Fixture losses happen and people get upset, but don't report it. At which point they can't really be that upset can they?

If you want impregnable storage there's citizenship storage. Just use that.

This seems to me an incredibly depressing but not unexpected response to something that is widespread and just accepted as reality. Plenty of fixtures everywhere disappear- to the point where every longterm player embraces a stark sense of nihilism about it. That, however, gets into whether server history Should Be preserved which is an entirely different thread.

Have something of value, gold or rpwise? Always keep it in your inventory or citizen storage. Not playing a strength build? Well, sucks to be you.

How do we rationalize, in character, not being able to take something off someone's corpse when they are literally killed but be able to just lockpick their door and take something? Why was pickpocketing changed to be only gold, but this remains? Why was disarm changed so you could not just steal people's weapons?

I don't mean to sound charged, as this will undoubtedly sound anyways, but it's just odd to me that this has remained the way it is for as long as it has.

[Eyeliner]

Did this happen to you recently? I mean the most common quarterbreaker build isn't even currently possible to use and I think that activity has decreased significantly since, though there's probably another way or two to get there.

[I will never sleep]

Did this happen to you recently? I mean the most common quarterbreaker build isn't even currently possible to use and I think that activity has decreased significantly since, though there's probably another way or two to get there.

Cleric is not the only way.

[The GrumpyCat]

Re Fixtures:

We can't have fixtures lying around forever. There needs to be a way of dealing with unwanted ones. Yes loosing a favorite fixture can be sad, but so can not being able to destroy a fixture you don't want. Or being unable to put any fixtures down in an area yourself, because the limits are taken off. That's the way it is.

I have the mentality that Arelith is a Roleplay server, first and foremost, and what quantifies RolePlay is interaction. There is nothing interactive about being stolen from.

I see your point. My personal ideal world would be a system where you can enter homes, but not steal from chests. But that's been looked at and doesn't seem to be feasable.

Irongron wants thieves to be able to well... thief. To do their thing with other players and I can see why. So that's how we're going.

But all that being said - when it comes to theft it's really up to you how interactive it is. If someone has stolen from you can ignore it - and that's fine. Or you can report it to the pc guard. Spread rumours of what was stolen and try and get it back? Put a bounty on the item? Accuse random people in the street? If you really want rp out of it - make rp! If you don't want rp out of it. Don't.

Plenty of fixtures everywhere disappear- to the point where every longterm player embraces a stark sense of nihilism about it. That, however, gets into whether server history Should Be preserved which is an entirely different thread.

I'm going to be brave and touch on this.

Preserving history is one thing. Preserving the present is another.

Preserving history is writing that Sir Bob had a statue to him outside of Cordor, and was well loved - in a book or some other form. And that's fine.

Preserving present is insisting that said statue never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever be moved.

I have a few fixtures I am extremely fond of ooc, and I really hope won't be moved/destroyed. But I accept that it's part of the game that they might be, and that their destruction often makes way for new things. That sucks sometimes, but it's the way it is.

Here's wher I am going to sound harsh. And I am sorry if this comes across as brutal but:

Arelith isn't a single player game.
Arelith isn't a book.
Your character isn't the main character. It's just a bit part amongst literally thousands
Your character will loose things, Will loose to others. That's fine. Other characters deserve a 'win' too. Even if it isn't always much fun for you.
Things will change. Stuff your character builds - whether it be fixtures, relationships, organizations, whatever - will eventually fade and be forgotten. And that's alright. It's sad. But it means new stories get to be made. Other people get to have fun.

I'm definatly up for making Quarter Breaking - or more accuratly Chest Breaking - more interactive, more tracable, more interesting. Sure. But ultimatly there will always be ways of other characters effecting yours, for good and for bad.

[VibeKings]

Personally, I feel as though item-thievery and quarterbreaking are too intertwined, when they should not be.

You should not feel completely safe in a house by yourself, just because you know the door is impossible to enter without a really specific build -- why are player homes the highest DC doors on the server? On the other hand, lowering this might encourage gank-squads even more than mechanics like -scry already do -- there should be places that characters can feel "safe" but never "invulnerable," even in areas like Dis or the Shadovar Post. It's a hard balance to keep. There are also certain guildhouses (Boreal Keep comes to mind) and all ships which are totally impregnable by anyone who doesn't have a key or isn't in a party with someone who has a key.

But you can't make it easier to get into quarters and homes at the moment, because all that really does is encourage 0-effort thievery, as the rules don't proscribe taking items without interaction. All other forms of taking items have been slowly phased out, even those that previously required direct interaction of some kind, like pickpocket and disarm.

EDIT: I feel as though I should append something for fixtures, as they're to me an occupant in a weird middle ground between player and item. It's hard, because in a totally realistic setting, you'd have 24/7 guards over a really valuably-fluffed treasure/dangerously-fluffed magic artifact/etc. Of course the simulation we play in doesn't allow for that; everyone logs out eventually, timezones don't overlap, etc. And things like message boards do allow less active players, or players who fall more significantly outside the timezone of fellow faction/settlement/etc. members to "stay in the loop," so to speak, and making quarters less secure would essentially mean making confidential information a thing that can only be shared directly. That may not be a good thing, depending on your perspective.

[I will never sleep]

I'm not sure when this became about "winning" and "losing". It feels like sidestepping the point. There is a system present in the game which does not promote Roleplay, but just mechanical taking of things. It doesn't affect my character in a meaningful way, it is purely a mechanical loss that occurs when I am offline.

I am okay with being moved and shook, but I have an issue when the Moving and Shaking occurs with absolutely 0 input from me whatsoever when I am actually actively playing. Same as just waking up and finding out your house got swept away by an unexplainable tornado isn't fun (which, ironically, is close to something that has actually happened).

But you can't make it easier to get into quarters and homes at the moment, because all that really does is encourage 0-effort thievery, as the rules don't proscribe taking items without interaction. All other forms of taking items have been slowly phased out, even those that previously required direct interaction of some kind, like pickpocket and disarm.

This is the part I really do not get, personally. It should be fine to just be disarmed and have your weapon taken. Plenty of weapons out there. You can make a new one with just some effort. Just take a loss! Why was it changed if that is the case?

I get the general sentiment, though. Which seems to be one of apathy and Irongron's wishes. I am also totally okay and on board with quarters being more accessible and more easily broken into, if items were also not just as easily taken. I feel much the same way about it that I do about -scry, in that cool things can come of it, but most of the time it is just used in a destructive manner.

[Mattamue]

Agreed no safe spaces.

Still feels to me like RP before PVP not applying to theft is a gap. Both quarters and pickpocket flavors.

Maybe it'll take someone really taking it beyond the edge to make a change in that requirement.

[Marsi]

Things will change. Stuff your character builds - whether it be fixtures, relationships, organizations, whatever - will eventually fade and be forgotten. And that's alright. It's sad. But it means new stories get to be made. Other people get to have fun.

Exactly. Don't be so eager to have players better protect their Stuff, because if it were so, you'd never have had the room to put down your awesome Stuff in the first place.

A fixture or item becomes history after it passes the Darwinian screen of time, the indifference of most other players, and yes, thieves, repurposers, and griefers.

*Is* fixture/quarter theft actually rampant, or is this about calling into question the perceived hypocrisy of server-sanctioned non-interactive PvP? I feel like there are so many "we need to talk about x" threads these days that are based on the narrow anecdata of a group/faction/discord who don't realise their problem isn't actually represented at all in the wider playerbase.

I get the general sentiment, though. Which seems to be one of apathy and Irongron's wishes.

It's hardly fair to call it "Irongron's wishes" - Arelith has always been about bad things happening to good adventurers. It's the tradeoff of getting to own property, which is not to be a locked down, personal minecraft fort, but a living part of the narrative landscape that as much belongs to the envious thief as it does the teacup party having owner. Crime RP is so fragile and non-existent that it's really difficult to make things more interactive and above board because the victims/law always have the advantage and it just wouldn't pay (it hardly does now). Don't we have impenetrable menu-based citizen vaults anyway?

I don't think the system is perfect, and I do think it would be great if quarter breaking and chest cracking were distinct.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I know I am never going to convince anyone who doesn't already see things like I do, but I am going to give it a try anyways.


Peoples, your fixtures, your items, even your character themselves mean very little in the grand scheme of things. The only thing that matters is the story your character tells. And honestly, this obsession with material wealth and safe spaces for fixtures that you should have the description saved for anyways (though I know thats not always possible) and who owns what property makes things all very ooc and increasingly difficult to tell a good story. Here's a good example that can come from a quarter breaker stealing your stack of gold nuggets or something...

" Sheila E, tormented by the thought of some thief rummaging through her personal belongings, forms a citizens city watch and names them The Glamorous Life. They spend their days setting traps for would be quarter breakers, and while sheila was never sure if she got "the" quarter breaker her band of vigilantes wearing mink fur even in the summer time bring to justice countless thieves. Now that no thief would dare enter a quarter uninvited in the city of cordor again, Sheila when asked if she would run for chancellor flatly responded "I'm just a girl who had a mission and a drum, and now all I have is a drum." and retired off into the sunset a legend."

So, yeah, silly story aside I think I proved that quarter breaking can generate rp even if you never meet the quarter breaker. Its really up to you what you do with it, not them. Me personally, when I had a quarter that was constantly pillaged by multiple thieves, I just started leaving stuff in my box to steal. I wasn't personally interested in the story, but if taking my piece of loot that could sell for 30-50k helps them tell their story, I'm all for it. Because again, none of it matters. Until I can buy a meal at ruth chris or something with my Arelith coins, its all in the game. And thievery is in the game.

[Arienette]

Hate to casually hand-wave at your concerns but.

Keeping important but heavy items in the bank and

Lighter/smaller important items on your person

Seems like the way to work within the current system.

Why someone would keep a crucial plot item in their quarter chest is inexplicable to me.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Is it still possible for people to very easily rob your bank storage?

[I will never sleep]

Hate to casually hand-wave at your concerns but.

Keeping important but heavy items in the bank and

Lighter/smaller important items on your person

Seems like the way to work within the current system.

Why someone would keep a crucial plot item in their quarter chest is inexplicable to me.

It does not make sense for every character to be a citizen of [Place]. But like many things, decisions, directions, seem to be going less in the way of roleplay, and more out of some sense of mmo grind. Of course you have citizen storage. Why wouldn't you? Everyone does. I, certainly, will not be as naive as I once was. My druid will certainly be a citizen of Guldorand or something just for ooc storage benefits.

People can also take things out of your citizen storage, by leering over your shoulder at the same time you're accessing it. Also, besides the point.

-

I'm confused as to why I am being told about the great and emergent roleplay of just waking up to finding your things gone is good but trying to keep things of sentimental value or wanting player interaction is belittled. It just feels tone deaf to me.

I still have not gotten an answer as to why pickpocket and disarm was changed, if this is the general sentiment people have towards their items.

[VibeKings]

I wasn't personally interested in the story, but if taking my piece of loot that could sell for 30-50k helps them tell their story, I'm all for it. Because again, none of it matters.

If it doesn't matter, and it has the zero relevance on storytelling you claim it does, how does taking or not taking a piece of loot make any difference? What meaningful story does it create, if the presence of the item makes no difference? How? Frankly, I imagine the amount of 1 gp value cheese slices stolen pales in comparison to the amount of, let's say mithril dusts that are stolen -- I don't think that's a fluke.

Peoples, your fixtures, your items, even your character themselves mean very little in the grand scheme of things. The only thing that matters is the story your character tells.

Maybe in some grand, long-term overview where all that we measure is what we can recall many years later, all things are probably not so relevant, but that overview doesn't quite strike me as relevant, because this is a game that's supposed to be fun for one reason or another. It's baffling to claim "items don't matter, gold doesn't matter, your character doesn't matter" when these things all demonstrably do, and don't just influence storytelling, they "are" storytelling, they are all three the means through which we engage in the act of storytelling on Arelith. If you strip all three of those things out, what exactly are we left with? The understatement the mechanics of the server as irrelevant distractions is to me as unhealthy as the more frequently maligned, spreadsheet madness of the latest "meta."

I don't even disagree with you on the point that the obsession with "who owns what" is deleterious, and is a real problem with player culture on the server right now. But I do disagree, and strongly, that a loathing for what quarterbreaking means in practice is equitable with that obsession.