Arelith

I'm fine with the penalties in their current state aside from the 100% arcane spell failure chance; the other penalties already guarantee if a Drow is caught on the surface, they're guaranteed to lose a fight (unless they're an AC build? Maybe add a AC malus). But the amount of spell failure (100%) from what I'm told is a bit extreme, perhaps lower the spell resistance portion of the malus.

I'm operating off of other player's reports of the maluses suffered from being in daylight, so if the numerical value is off I apologize, I haven't had an opportunity to test it myself.

Or they can go by their racial lore and avoid sunlight?

Nekonecro wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:55 am Or they can go by their racial lore and avoid sunlight?

Why not institute a kill script that vaporizes Drow on the surface when they get touched by Daylight like Vampires?

So, uh, for those of us who are not playing drow exactly right now but did for a few years...

What are the actual mechanics?

This seems important to know.

Skane wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:57 am Why not institute a kill script that vaporizes Drow on the surface when they get touched by Daylight like Vampires?

Because they don't die in sunlight.

Nekonecro wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:28 am

Skane wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:57 am Why not institute a kill script that vaporizes Drow on the surface when they get touched by Daylight like Vampires?

Because they don't die in sunlight.

Ah if we're going off PNP, or Lore; they only suffer

Light Blindness: Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds drow for 1 round. On subsequent rounds, they are dazzled as long as they remain in the affected area.

That being said I don't believe that's sufficient alone for a penalty, I do however believe the ASF Is overkill.

Skibbles wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:14 am So, uh, for those of us who are not playing drow exactly right now but did for a few years...

What are the actual mechanics?

This seems important to know.

-20 SR, 70% miss chance, go blind for like 5 rounds and skill reductions, + spell failure.

So there's different scripts for drow, derro and vampires?

Bottom line of the reasoning really just comes down to getting Drow to leave the surface when day is coming.
The penalties have to be severe enough to motivate a player to conform to the setting's lore.

To quote Garrbear from the update thread:

garrbear758 wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 6:08 pm 9. Drow is also very strong right now, and there have been a ton of issues of drow just blatantly running around in daylight and ignoring their racial penalties. We may need to make further adjustments to drow in the future (specifically making them choose between the 32 SR and major gift), but we are going to let them be for the time being.

The underlined part being the key point here.

Eyeliner wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:36 am So there's different scripts for drow, derro and vampires?

Derro supposedly scales the longer they're in sunlight, Drow seem to be all at once.

Nekonecro wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:39 am Bottom line of the reasoning really just comes down to getting Drow to leave the surface when day is coming.
The penalties have to be severe enough to motivate a player to conform to the setting's lore.

To quote Garrbear from the update thread:

garrbear758 wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 6:08 pm 9. Drow is also very strong right now, and there have been a ton of issues of drow just blatantly running around in daylight and ignoring their racial penalties. We may need to make further adjustments to drow in the future (specifically making them choose between the 32 SR and major gift), but we are going to let them be for the time being.

The underlined part being the key point here.

And I said post one that I think the rest of the penalties are sufficient for that purpose; there are issues with underground areas being counted as daylight. It's -100% arcane spell failure as well; clerics remain unaffected, so do the number of other caster classes that aren't Arcane. The other penalties are massive and should be sufficient to discourage anyone from just 'running around on the surface'; all Arcane Spell Failure chance does is make it harder to cast darkness when you transition into an area that blinds you because you can't cast the spell on your hotbar.

I'd like other people's thoughts on this so it's not just a back and forth between us.

That seems excessive. Blindness and miss-chance?

I don't see how that's necessary when simple uncurable blindness would suffice just as much. Blindness already is an incredible debuff, blacks out your whole screen, is an auto-win in Pvp against anyone who does not immediately cure it, and I'd suspect more than enough to discourage the blatant wandering that was quoted.

On the other hand you're going to die whether you have the full gamut of penalties or just blindness, so it really just doesn't matter, but it still feels excessive and unnecessary.

I'm very supportive of any penalty at all versus none, so I'll be happy either way.

For the record, the spell failure (which will affect all spells, not just arcane) is much lower than 100%. The blindness also is not permanent, unlike the other penalties.

Kalopsia wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:26 am For the record, the spell failure (which will affect all spells, not just arcane) is much lower than 100%. The blindness also is not permanent, unlike the other penalties.

Thank you for clarifying.

Eyeliner wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:36 am So there's different scripts for drow, derro and vampires?

Vampires die fast in sunlight.

True Story

Edens_Fall wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:45 pm Vampires die fast in sunlight.

True Story

Wait, do you have a vampire PC, Edens_Fall?

Skane wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:32 am Ah if we're going off PNP, or Lore; they only suffer

Light Blindness: Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds drow for 1 round. On subsequent rounds, they are dazzled as long as they remain in the affected area.

That being said I don't believe that's sufficient alone for a penalty, I do however believe the ASF Is overkill.

If we're going off of lore, their equipment would disintegrate in sunlight. I don't think anyone wants that.

garrbear758 wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:04 pm

Skane wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:32 am Ah if we're going off PNP, or Lore; they only suffer

Light Blindness: Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds drow for 1 round. On subsequent rounds, they are dazzled as long as they remain in the affected area.

That being said I don't believe that's sufficient alone for a penalty, I do however believe the ASF Is overkill.

If we're going off of lore, their equipment would disintegrate in sunlight. I don't think anyone wants that.

I admit I'd laugh pretty hard selling a drowcraft item to a surface dwelling character knowing it would begin to disintegrate when they head home.

Though in all honesty having drowcraft items that have a slight bonus in faerzress areas but lose durability when in sunlight would actually be really cool. Probably a pain in the butt to script though for not much gain.

If we were to go on Lore, anything Adamantine would disintegrate in sunlight, Drow would get blinded and then dazed for a while, lose their ability to summon darkness and be able to adapt.
Drow, by they Racial Lore "prefer to avoid sunlight", but they are far from helpless in sunlight.
In canon AD&D, it's a balance... Drow get in sunlight the equivalent negative effects a human or a surface elf would get down in the underdark without a lightsource.

So what about giving the exact same negatives to all surface races when they come in the underdark?

Personally, I find the blindness and negative effects in sunlight are really nice. They correspond pretty much to what I've always roleplayed my Drow to suffer when I ended up having to walk in broad daylight, though, when I see the kind of answer from Nekonecro, I end up indeed wishing the same blindness mechanics were applied to surface-races coming in the underdark.

Thing is, in both case they're supposed to be a counter too.
a torch or a light spell for surface-races... Darkness for underdwellers.
As it is currently implemented, in your own Darkness, you're blind too, and if you use ultravision to bypass it, you bounce back on being sunblind.
There are some activities which become a hassle because of this.

I'll take Sailing as example.
Due to how sailing takes time, you'll necessarily go through daylight and nighttime cycles while hunting at sea. This was taken into account with underdark ships being enchanted with darkness auras, and with the sunlight sensitivity patch it was even implemented that ships boarded by a drow ship gets a Darkness area spawned aboard, to enact that the ship being boarded is at least partially englufed in the underdark ship's aura.
Yet, with the current implementation, Drow sailors boarding gets either blinded by the darkness from their ships, or blinded by sunlight if the darkness isn't present or if they use ultravision.
You'll answer me "well then, don't board in daylight, fight only when it's nighttime at sea?" but the script make it so you get 90% of the encounters at sea in daylight and 10% only in nighttime.
This effectively makes Drow sailing absolutely counterproductive, while I don't think it was the goal. (especially since the devs went through the hassle of adding the darkness area spawned by the ships)

I really like the idea of this "light sensitivity", but if I could make suggestions, I would implement it differently, especially for the effect sought.

I would make Drow dazed for 5 rounds, Blinded for 1 turn, both undispellable, if they step outright into daylight.
If they come under the cover of a Globe of Darkness they shouldn't be dazed/blinded, at least not before the darkness gets dispelled.
Shadow Armor, Shadow Veil also should protect against the daze, if not from the blindness althogether, maybe even just wearing a hood.
the other penalties should come progressively. Make it a stacking -2 ab, -2ac, -5% spellfailure, -3 sr that piles up to ten times the longer the Drow stays in sunlight? one stack every few rounds if you have to, unavoidable and you can be sure Drow will be meeker when they hang around the surface with -20 ab/ac, 50% spell failure and -30 sr. and sure, add damage vulnerabilities on top of it.

Either that, or implement a natural "immunity to darkness" to all underdark races, so a Drow can briefly find respite from sunlight inside their natural darkness (but this should also work for Orogs, Kobolds, Goblins, who come from the Underdark).

And for Balance's sake, apply the same to surfacers coming in the underdark without a torch in hand or a light spell on themselves.

This is not an issue of balance. It's meant to be one-sided. There is a false equivalency of trying to inflict statistical penalties to surface-oriented characters in the same vein as they are to UDers in daylight. The admins have always maintained that monster races aren't meant to be welcome on the surface by policy and now there is a mechanical representation of that desire for some. Hopefully it gets expanded a bit further where it makes sense.

Making it difficult to see without low-light/dark/ultra vision? Fair. Actually cool.

It is really up to the developers how to best handle a lot of their hopes for player interactions. One of those ways is through mechanical incentive (or disincentive in this case). What this change tells me is that there was enough drow players heading to the surface without properly roleplaying their discomfort to sunlight. This is a part of the lore setting in FR, but enforcement of this lore was left up to DMs and there really isn't enough DMs. The next best thing is to mechanically disincentize this behavior in hopes of players correcting their behavior in regards to sunlight.

A good change. A change that allows DMs to take that off their plate (at least for the most part).

In regards to magic items disintegrating:

For generations, the drow utilized a process that caused their magic items to disintegrate when exposed to sunlight, in the hope of making them less attractive to potential thieves and invaders. This practice has all but died out in modern times, partially because it didn’t function as a deterrent, and also because many drow found their campaigns against the surface races hampered by the time limits such items placed on their activities. - Drow of the Underdark p.29

The type of enchantment was called "Drow Tempered". Could be interesting to do something with tempering.

Curve wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:51 pm

Edens_Fall wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:45 pm Vampires die fast in sunlight.

True Story

Wait, do you have a vampire PC, Edens_Fall?

Maybe!

Having played with this for a while, I find it a huge step forward! I am sure it will make things much more easier. There might be small adjustments in the future, but as it is now: Just fine!

Inordinate wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:07 pm This is not an issue of balance. It's meant to be one-sided. There is a false equivalency of trying to inflict statistical penalties to surface-oriented characters in the same vein as they are to UDers in daylight. The admins have always maintained that monster races aren't meant to be welcome on the surface by policy and now there is a mechanical representation of that desire for some. Hopefully it gets expanded a bit further where it makes sense.

Making it difficult to see without low-light/dark/ultra vision? Fair. Actually cool.

Don't they suffer a severe Faezress penalty already?

Lack_of_imagination wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 6:37 pm If we were to go on Lore, anything Adamantine would disintegrate in sunlight,

its only drow crafted adamantine not all. however its anything drow crafted that disentegrates due to being away from the magical nature of the Underdark, not just sunlight in general. if we go by lore