Arelith

It seems you are now able to DW two spears. Is this intentional?

Spears are now tagged as Small size, which means unless manually changed to something else, it will be possible to use them for dual wielding and weapon finesse. I understand that the only intentional part of it was that small races will be able to wield spear, the rest is unintentional. I also understand from the dev who caused this *cough* totally not Kenji *cough* that unless some game breaking spear monk dip builds destroy the meta, we can probably leave it as is, but that's just what I heard on discord.

Hmm… spears are finesse now?

Hmm… so this was really quick but…

Dual Wielding Elder Dreams-

Duergar
8 Swashbuckler
7 Weapon Master
15 Ranger

570 HP
+50/+50/+50/+45/+45/+40/+35
48 AC

Min Damage: 31
Max Damage: 56

Min Crit: 124
Max Crit: 224

That’s kinda interesting.

Hooray, a new character concept!

Also… new standard rogue weapon? Lol.

AstralUniverse wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:44 pm Spears are now tagged as Small size, which means unless manually changed to something else, it will be possible to use them for dual wielding and weapon finesse. I understand that the only intentional part of it was that small races will be able to wield spear, the rest is unintentional. I also understand from the dev who caused this *cough* totally not Kenji *cough* that unless some game breaking spear monk dip builds destroy the meta, we can probably leave it as is, but that's just what I heard on discord.

Yes, please do keep spears as finesseable.

My brother has been upset about the lack of a dex based polearm option for a long time, and while the issue is quite niche I see no reason why this sort of character shouldn't be useable.

Has someone confirmed the spears are finessable? Weapons aren't automatically finessable if small or tiny sized.

I can only confirm that they can now be dual wielded.

I can confirm that they are finessable, yes. I've been experimenting with it on PGCC for a few days now.

I honestly think it's weird that they count as small weapons, given that they are long polearms.

Two things- one, it's worth noting that in D&D there is actually a SHORTspear that can be wielded one-handed by default, so it's not terribly ridiculous. Them being considered small weapons is probably overly generous, maybe they can specifically not count as small for dual-wielding, but medium instead? Shortspears are about three and a half to 4 feet long, as opposed to the standard 7 or 8.

Second thing, there is actually a historical precedent for fighting with two spears amongst the Irish, but it was rare and only practiced by those who were considered to have mastered single-spear fighting. It's a very offensive style that involves a lot of alternating stabs and an occasional slash to interrupt someone's rhythm or force space, which usually favors the spear.

Oh, yeah, btw I'm a re-enactment nerd, too. Not that the fact it has real life backing actually matters- it's fantasy, if someone wants to dual-wield spears, let them.

Waldo52 wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 8:46 pm

AstralUniverse wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:44 pm Spears are now tagged as Small size, which means unless manually changed to something else, it will be possible to use them for dual wielding and weapon finesse. I understand that the only intentional part of it was that small races will be able to wield spear, the rest is unintentional. I also understand from the dev who caused this *cough* totally not Kenji *cough* that unless some game breaking spear monk dip builds destroy the meta, we can probably leave it as is, but that's just what I heard on discord.

Yes, please do keep spears as finesseable.

My brother has been upset about the lack of a dex based polearm option for a long time, and while the issue is quite niche I see no reason why this sort of character shouldn't be useable.

Quarterstaff and Two-bladed sword are marked as finessable on the wiki. If he wants a long stick.

Would be nice to have more than one type of spear though. Making it finessable and small means it will lose two-handed bonus. Would be probably better to have a spear and "short spear" instead.

Small races can't use either of those and besides they both require you to have the two handed feats. I'd probably have been a lot more excited about finessable spears when I was trying to make a halfling cavalier work but it's pretty cool for them.

So yes to finesse weapon, no to Swash weapon- however, two-blade swords are now Swash friendly so that’s interesting

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:57 am
Second thing, there is actually a historical precedent for fighting with two spears amongst the Irish, but it was rare and only practiced by those who were considered to have mastered single-spear fighting. It's a very offensive style that involves a lot of alternating stabs and an occasional slash to interrupt someone's rhythm or force space, which usually favors the spear.

Source?

Dr. B wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 4:54 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:57 am
Second thing, there is actually a historical precedent for fighting with two spears amongst the Irish, but it was rare and only practiced by those who were considered to have mastered single-spear fighting. It's a very offensive style that involves a lot of alternating stabs and an occasional slash to interrupt someone's rhythm or force space, which usually favors the spear.

Source?

According to a cursory search I'm very wrong about the implementation of how the style is supposed to be used, apparently - but that's how I did it in my group.

Apparently, one of the spears is meant to be shorter, and the longer one is meant to be used as a throwing missile before closing for melee combat, with the shorter spear held in your off-hand mounted with a shield. The Shaka tribe did something similar. Before wikipedia upended my ideas I was going to say my source was historical reenactment in Adrian Empire, but we apparently took some liberties with our fighting styles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assegai#Iklwa

The most legitimate-*looking* example beyond the Irish legend of Diarmuid I can find is also a re-enactment example, so take with a grain of salt- note, the included video does not look particularly graceful. https://sites.google.com/a/livinghistor ... mbat-guide

But that's what fantasy is for, I suppose.

Edit: Apparently some 15th century fencing master drew up some artwork to instruct some duke or other on various fighting forms - one of these images does depict someone wielding two spears at once in a stance that I suppose could be used in the way I described, but it looks awkward and cumbersome as all get out. https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Philippo_di_Vadi 2nd image under miscellaneous plays.

Void wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:24 am

Waldo52 wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 8:46 pm

AstralUniverse wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:44 pm Spears are now tagged as Small size, which means unless manually changed to something else, it will be possible to use them for dual wielding and weapon finesse. I understand that the only intentional part of it was that small races will be able to wield spear, the rest is unintentional. I also understand from the dev who caused this *cough* totally not Kenji *cough* that unless some game breaking spear monk dip builds destroy the meta, we can probably leave it as is, but that's just what I heard on discord.

Yes, please do keep spears as finesseable.

My brother has been upset about the lack of a dex based polearm option for a long time, and while the issue is quite niche I see no reason why this sort of character shouldn't be useable.

Quarterstaff and Two-bladed sword are marked as finessable on the wiki. If he wants a long stick.

Would be nice to have more than one type of spear though. Making it finessable and small means it will lose two-handed bonus. Would be probably better to have a spear and "short spear" instead.

No, no, no. He wants to fight with a spear and a shield, and do it with weapon finesse. And why the hell not? Speara can be fairly light weapons.

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:40 am Sources.

Neither of those articles says anything about dual wielding. The first one says that in the offhand you can carry a shield and a light spare spear. The second one doesn't mention dual wielding at all.

So to scoot right on past historical accuracy in dragon land,

There are, allegedly, two handed non-finesse Spears coming, as Pikes, if scuttlebutt on the discords is to be believed.

Drowboy wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:27 pm So to scoot right on past historical accuracy in dragon land,

There are, allegedly, two handed non-finesse Spears coming, as Pikes, if scuttlebutt on the discords is to be believed.

Some enemies are dropping bronze versions already.

Just confirming that while finessable, they are not rogue weapons.

No epic dodge dual +5 elder dream weapon masters

I should clarify that my post above was written in humor and that it's more than likely that there's a fix in the pipeline Soon(tm) and spears will not remain finesse weapon and there will probably be some kind of additional -2 ab debuff on the character if a spear is held in the off-hand, to off-set the unintended interaction with the weapon size.

Drowboy wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:27 pm So to scoot right on past historical accuracy in dragon land,

There are, allegedly, two handed non-finesse Spears coming, as Pikes, if scuttlebutt on the discords is to be believed.

Go kill some Kua-toa, they'drop bronze and iron ones -perhaps the champions will have steel?
You'll found them as pikes (with the spear descrpition) and they're bigger as well in the inventory (4 "boxes" instead of the usual 3 of the spear)

Anyway, yay for dual wielding spears!

Totally not intended for both finesse and dual-wield but, hey, it’s pretty cool.

Aesthetics > Mechanics > Realism

There’s no such thing such as shortsword (closer to gladius or arming sword). Bastard sword and long sword are the same and they should have been twohandable. Brigandine, which is definitely a heavy armor because of its plates inlaid beneath the leather and flax, is misinterpreted as studded leather armor.

If someone wants to dual-wield spear with a dagger, or sword with spear, or spear with spear, all the power to their fantasy.

Build and aesthetics diversity achieved.

As for these new “pikes” that are named “spears”, mobs that are old enough to be designed with twohand spears in mind have their spears automatically converted to pikes if they don’t have offhand equipped. It is released earlier than intended but we’ll have craftable options Soon

I've asked that duel wield spear are disabled. So don't build for them.