Arelith

Hi,

A couple feedbacks on Dire Macas:

1a) Visually, they are extremely small for a two handed weapon. They really lack charisma and feel like a standard Maca. Doubling their visual size would do them justice.
1b) Correct me if i'm wrong, but i think weapon VFXs do not work on dire macas.
2) It doesn't exist in any NPC shop, so you HAVE to craft one. That would be more than okay, if not for 3) 4) and 5)
3) The level 1 version of the Dire Maca costs Obsidian. If you start on the surface, you won't see obsidian before level 10-12 (from my knowledge of the server which can be wrong, but i'm still a veteran, so we can safely assume every casual and newcomers will never get obsidian as well). I would suggest removing that Obsidian tax OR adding obsidian to a lowbie area on the Surface (like Skal).
4) Further levels of the crafted version have a "shaped obsidian tax" which means if you want to be autonomous (like a smith would be), you have to split your points with art crafting making it that much harder to craft one.
5) Obsidian (superior) requires an inferno scroll, which means either you're crazy lucky with loot, or you need to find a druid or shaman with scribe scroll. Good luck with that. I would suggest picking another arcane fire spell for flavor like firebrand, something like that.

But what's for sure is that It's very difficult, unless you're being twinked, to equip Dire Macas "on curve" contrary to every other smithing weapons. I get however that they can appear "slightly stronger" and as a consequence are harder to make, I'm okay with that (but even then, they compete with Falchion so... they better be much stronger than a greatsword anyway).

Cheers !

Obsidian is available on Skal, reasonably reachable at level 6-8.

I know, hence my very clear emphasis on surface for that specific topic;

inferno scrolls can be purchased from an npc on surface

Rico_scorpion wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:15 pm I know, hence my very clear emphasis on surface for that specific topic;

Oh, I totally misread "surface, like Skal" as "surface eg. Skal".

Apologies.

Heroic Spirit wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:45 pm inferno scrolls can be purchased from an npc on surface

That's good to know thanks.

With the (slight) nerf to Scalebeast Render, the new weapons being added, and the adjustments to other weapons, I don't really understand why it it has only "3" AB. Now almost all elite weapons have 4, be it in the "simple" or "martial" groups. You even see +5 against dragons with the pike for a "simple" weapon. And here I am spending a feat to get a "+3" (which is deserved for falchion, because it's a falchion, but dire macas aren't falchions).

If we forget about the feat spent, the new greatswords/greataxe are just as good if not better than the scalebeast render (added damage type being the only thing going for it). But 1 less AB is, I think, much more meaningful than the added damage type but that's arguable. What's not arguable is that having to spend a feat for it when it's not "clearly better", then just makes it a poor weapon.

Even between dire macas it doesn't feel like that much of an upgrade. The previous version of the dire maca has massive critical 2d8 and wounding effect (ok, it's just flavor, still, it's there). The Scalebeast render loses massive critical and the wounding effect just to get +1 slash and +2bludg (i won't mention the +1d6 vs animals given no one cares about making more damage to easy monster types... pikes got 1d6 magical and +5 ab against DRAGONS!!!! AND IT S A SIMPLE WEAPON!!!).

Note: I'm not saying "nerf pikes" or "nerf others", definitely not, i'm just saying, Scalebeast render was "okayish" before because you could enchant it to get more damage, now that it is gone, the only niche of dire macas is the double damage types... for a feat and -1 AB. I would never make nor advise to make that call to any player.

Easy fix: +4ab // Alt: bring back massive crit and wounding to put it in line with other dire macas.

Rant over, thanks :p

For the record, a comparison:

PIKE SIMPLE 1d8/*3
AB: +4 (+5 vs Dragons)
Dmg: +1 Bludgeon, +2 Pierce, +1 Slash, 1d10 Electrical
Specific Dmg: 1d6 Magical vs Dragon
Keen
Save +5 vs Fear

GREATAXE MARTIAL 3d4/*3
Enhancement: +4 (+5 vs Giants)
Specific Dmg: +4 Electrical vs Giants/Ogres/Firbolgs/Minotaurs/Aberrations/Monstrous Humanoids
Keen
Massive Crit +1d6

DIRE MACA EXOTIC 2d6/*3
Attack Bonus: +3
Damage Bonus: Slashing 4 Damage
Damage Bonus: Bludgeoning 2 Damage
Damage Bonus vs.: Aberration/Beast/Magical Beast/Vermin 1d6 Damage Piercing
Extra Melee Damage: Bludgeoning
Keen

So vs Greataxe: spend a feat to get: -1AB / +1.5 damage / Extra melee damage bludge / lose Massive crit / trade useful pve boon vs useless pve boon.
VS pike: - 1 AB / +4.5 dam / Extra mele damage / - 5 vs fear / trade supergood pve boon vs useless pve boon

Rico_scorpion wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 10:34 am
For the record, a comparison:

PIKE SIMPLE 1d8/*3
AB: +4 (+5 vs Dragons)
Dmg: +1 Bludgeon, +2 Pierce, +1 Slash, 1d10 Electrical
Specific Dmg: 1d6 Magical vs Dragon
Keen
Save +5 vs Fear

GREATAXE MARTIAL 3d4/*3
Enhancement: +4 (+5 vs Giants)
Specific Dmg: +4 Electrical vs Giants/Ogres/Firbolgs/Minotaurs/Aberrations/Monstrous Humanoids
Keen
Massive Crit +1d6

DIRE MACA EXOTIC 2d6/*3
Attack Bonus: +3
Damage Bonus: Slashing 4 Damage
Damage Bonus: Bludgeoning 2 Damage
Damage Bonus vs.: Aberration/Beast/Magical Beast/Vermin 1d6 Damage Piercing
Extra Melee Damage: Bludgeoning
Keen

Just want to demonstrate average damage for your examples, may help clear this up:
Pike: 1d8 -> 4.5
Greataxe: 3d4 -> 7.5
Maca: 2d6 -> 7

Now generic damage bonuses:
Pike: 8.5 physical, 5.5 electrical
Greataxe: 11.5 physical
Maca: 13 physical

Specific types:
Pike: 8.5 physical, 5.5 electrical, 3.5 magic
Greataxe: 11.5 physical, 4 electrical
Maca: 16.5

Crits without specific types:
Pike: 25.5 physical, 16.5 electrical
Greataxe: 34.5 physical
Maca: 39 physical

Crits with specific types:
Pike: 25.5 physical, 16.5 electrical, 10.5 magic
Greataxe: 34.5 physical, 12 electrical
Maca: 49.5

Totals avg, excluding types, removed decimals:
Pike: 13
Greataxe: 11
Maca: 13

Totals avg, including types, removed decimals:
Pike: 16
Greataxe: 15
Maca: 16

Totals crit avg, excluding types, removed decimal:
Pike: 41
Greataxe: 34
Maca: 39

Totals crit avg, including types, removed decimal:
Pike: 51
Greataxe: 46
Maca: 49

Some things to note:
Electrical can be essence resisted.
Magic cannot, useful for dragons but nothing else on the pike.
Dragons are far less numerous than the race types on the gaxe and maca.
The gaxe and maca have large pools of race types.
The greataxe has the highest average reliability due to the 3 dice, pike has the least.
Maca has 2 damage types assigned and 3 accessible from bonus properties, this is VERY good for getting past DI.
Most importantly, you aren't always critting.

The ab stands out as the only point of possible contention to me, given the above.
For the record, try asking around Guldorand about Obsidian. There are ways to get it at level 3.

Thanks for the hard math. Quite informative.

Only three things to add/"disagree"/nuance:

- AB/Dam against "epic boss types" even more against dragons has to me much more appeal than types of mob that are mostly "trash mobs" or easy bosses.
- AB is a HUGE factor and i feel is worth quite a lot of damage
- Unless you play one of the races that have access to it for free, you have to spend a feat to get the dire maca. That's the core balance problem, not the actual damage numbers. If dire macas were accessible like greataxes they would be in their rightful spot balancewise. And pike is simple. Having simples overshadow greataxe is debatable, but overshadowing (or being similar to) something that you have to spend a precious feat for, is the thing that I believe, is problematic.

We should also have added the maths for the maul as it is the "bludg" weapon that is the direct "martial" competitor of the dire maca:

Base dam: 7 (2d6 20/3, identical to dire maca)
Average dam of endgame weapon: 11 (dire maca is 13)
4 AB (Dire maca is 3)
Against construct: 12 + 9 sonic
Crit: 33 (Dire maca is 39)

Sideboon:
2 str (which translates to 2 uni saves) vs extra damage type.

Again, even if i think that the maul is slightly superior to the scalebeast render because AB is so important, let's assume they are similar. Why pay a feat to get something roughly comparable ? That's my main grip.

Thanks a lot for contributing